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jakeblues6919 wrote:Wow, that's a great selection of Shamar Rinpoche's teachings. I'm looking forward to reading Rinpoche's new book, The Path to Awakening.

tamdrin wrote:interstingly enough I have read here http://www.shamarpa.org/index.php?id=6&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=44&tx_ttnews[backPid]=1&cHash=7328c057b3
that the Sharmapa doesn't feel Vajrayana is suitable for westerners..
I think that most practitioners of tibetan buddhism in the West are lying to themselves when they say that they are meditating. Or at least that is my feeling based on the converstions with people. We spend our time doing pujas, chanting, mudras, sounding the instruments and visualisation, but most of the time we are just in the sphere of sheer distraction. Either we are distracted with our thoughts or with the the ritual props or even with visualisations. And then we end up wandering after the years pass why, there is no realisation, when tantra is such a quick path.
Without having firm ground in shamatha meditation, we will never succeed with vajrayana methods. Of course in the old vajrayana texts themselves there is this approach as well, but it is probably forgotten or not applied. It is called practicing approach (nyenpa).
Silent Bob wrote:dzoki--You may be right--I've only been practicing for 38 years, so I can't give you a definitive answer, but the scent of your pious certainty leads me to wonder how well you understand the reality of what you are stating so boldly, or are you merely parroting the words of Shamar Rinpoche?...
I'm just sayin'...
Chris
dzoki wrote: I am sure that teachings such as atiyoga are extremely effective, but without firm basis in the understanding of sutrayana, they will have only limited benefit. People practice some method like rushan, they have a powerful experience, then they go back to their lives leaving retreat and not being grounded in the renunciation they wander off to different projects of the present life. They do not extract realisation from their experience, but cherish the experience as a precious memory. This is what I think of the situation in the West.
heart wrote:dzoki wrote: I am sure that teachings such as atiyoga are extremely effective, but without firm basis in the understanding of sutrayana, they will have only limited benefit. People practice some method like rushan, they have a powerful experience, then they go back to their lives leaving retreat and not being grounded in the renunciation they wander off to different projects of the present life. They do not extract realisation from their experience, but cherish the experience as a precious memory. This is what I think of the situation in the West.
I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that you practiced "rushan" and had powerful experience and then cherished that experience instead of getting realized?
You know that "rushan" is not about having powerful experiences, it is about separating mind "sem" and "rigpa". Maybe you just didn't understand how to do the practice?
/magnus
heart wrote:Hi dzoki,
Well, interesting ideas you have about westerners. I don't know if you are right or not but I often have doubts about the way people practice, not to mention how I practice myself. The problem about talking about other peoples practice is that it is actually very difficult to know the minds of other people. So when I look just at my own mind I don't agree with you. To teach only shamtha could be a serious obstacle for people. Shamatha and vipasshana belongs together and in any kind of meditation, that is correct, there is always a bit of both. This is actually equally true in Mahayana as in Vajrayana. When it comes to doing "nyenpa" the approach I do think it is of paramount importance in particular for Mahamudra and Dzogchen practitioners, not a popular opinion these days. Still "nyenpa" is always shamatha and vipassahana inseparable. The biggest problem we westerners have is that we don't practice enough. We are amateurs. However, at least for myself, I can't imagine a life without Vajrayana and even if I don't get any realization at all in this life I am still immensely grateful for meeting my Guru and receiving the key points of Vajrayana and it have changed my life in innumerable ways. So I don't know if Vajrayana is for westerners or not but it is definitely for me. It is actually Vajrayana that unlocked Mahayana and Hinayana for me and not the other way around.
/magnus
dzoki wrote:heart wrote:dzoki wrote: I am sure that teachings such as atiyoga are extremely effective, but without firm basis in the understanding of sutrayana, they will have only limited benefit. People practice some method like rushan, they have a powerful experience, then they go back to their lives leaving retreat and not being grounded in the renunciation they wander off to different projects of the present life. They do not extract realisation from their experience, but cherish the experience as a precious memory. This is what I think of the situation in the West.
I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that you practiced "rushan" and had powerful experience and then cherished that experience instead of getting realized?
You know that "rushan" is not about having powerful experiences, it is about separating mind "sem" and "rigpa". Maybe you just didn't understand how to do the practice?
/magnus
I did not practice rushan much, this was experience of one of my friends. He had an idea that he recognized rigpa. But I think one needs a bit of stability to be sure, not just a flash of something. Also many experiences can be mistaken for rigpa. Later he told me that this is just a memory now, that it was something he had in the past and now I see how bussy he is with his life and work etc. So it occured to me that he surely must have had some experience, but since he left it to be just a single occurence and have not practiced more it became just like that. The reason why people do not practice enough is that they are not understanding the main points of training in the sutrayana - four changings of mind and bodhicitta. Otherwise if someone has this understanding how could one not pracitce more?
dzoki wrote:heart wrote:Hi dzoki,
Well, interesting ideas you have about westerners. I don't know if you are right or not but I often have doubts about the way people practice, not to mention how I practice myself. The problem about talking about other peoples practice is that it is actually very difficult to know the minds of other people. So when I look just at my own mind I don't agree with you. To teach only shamtha could be a serious obstacle for people. Shamatha and vipasshana belongs together and in any kind of meditation, that is correct, there is always a bit of both. This is actually equally true in Mahayana as in Vajrayana. When it comes to doing "nyenpa" the approach I do think it is of paramount importance in particular for Mahamudra and Dzogchen practitioners, not a popular opinion these days. Still "nyenpa" is always shamatha and vipassahana inseparable. The biggest problem we westerners have is that we don't practice enough. We are amateurs. However, at least for myself, I can't imagine a life without Vajrayana and even if I don't get any realization at all in this life I am still immensely grateful for meeting my Guru and receiving the key points of Vajrayana and it have changed my life in innumerable ways. So I don't know if Vajrayana is for westerners or not but it is definitely for me. It is actually Vajrayana that unlocked Mahayana and Hinayana for me and not the other way around.
/magnus
Sure I cannot claim that I know how others have their minds, their inner workings etc. But one can observe some general things on the basis of conversation and behavior. For example I know a few people who want to do a retreat, They have expressed this for years but they don't go and do it. It is not that they have a family or that they have some strong obligations towards someone, but it seems to me that they are not able to let go of their situation. And this is think is a lack of the lojong trainig, not understanding how our situation really is. Our worldly life is so beautiful, yet so deceiving, it is just like licking honey off the razor, yet we are so trapped in it.
Of course shamatha and vipashyana belong together, but without basis of shamatha there can hardly be any vipashyana. And I myself continue to do my daily sadhana, but I do the most simple version and try to get more presence and stability, before i did long pujas and more complicated sadhanas also I changed my practice quite often, but over the time I settled with a few practices that I do daily and try not to do many new things. In general I spend my time in retreat so it is easy to practice sadhana there, but in bussy life of a working person it is quite diffiult, of course depending on a job. So I think that for people living in the society to become a quality vajrayana practitioner they should train in lojong and shamatha first.
dzoki wrote:Our worldly life is so beautiful, yet so deceiving, it is just like licking honey off the razor, yet we are so trapped in it.
All Beings Arise in Time,
Time Continually Consumes Them All
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