Astrology, Divination and Oracles

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thornbush
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Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby thornbush » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:08 pm

Ok, fellow Vajra brethren...
This topic may have been discussed to death but I still don't get it...
1. What is the role of this thread's title in Tibetan Buddhist context?
2. What is the justification for it?
3. Where is the justification found?

:thanks:

Heruka
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Re: Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby Heruka » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:02 pm

justification?

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Luke
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Re: Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby Luke » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:13 pm

I heard a Drikung lama once say that the advantage of clairvoyance is that if you know that something bad will happen the future, you can act wisely and hopefully avoid or minimize the bad event; if you know that something good will happen in the future, you can work to maximize the benefit from this.

Although this lama was speaking about psychic abilities and not specifically about divination, I think the same principle applies. Used wisely, divination is just another tool which can be used to maximize good karma and minimize bad karma while helping other sentient beings.

On one level, divination is simply a tool. On another level, it's a cultural tradition, just like the I-Ching is part of ancient Chinese culture.

I also found this:
Although means of telling the future were employed in Tibet, before the advent of Buddhism, they are not regarded as an alien remnant outside the Buddhist framework that it is occasionally convenient to call upon. Rather, they are used within the sphere of Buddhist concepts, functioning in accordance with Buddhist principles such as karma. There are no references to divination in the collections of sutras, but many can be found in the tantras.
http://www.tibet.com/buddhism/divination.html

thornbush
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Re: Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby thornbush » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:51 am

Here's my tainted view:
Heruka: justification for those 3 practices in Tibetan Buddhism.
There are other streams of Buddhist Traditions who have clearly mentioned that such are not fit to be practiced by the Ordained nor the Laity and is founded on scriptural injunctions such as the Pali Canon and in Mahayana, Sutras like the Mahayana Brahmajala (Code of the Bodhisattvas). It has even been known as 'low arts'

Indeed Luke, I agree that the I-Ching is a cultural tool but nevertheless discouraged and not used by orthodox Chinese Mahayana Buddhists either.
But some concerns are raised here:
After all the profound Teachings and practices as expounded by the Buddha from the Tibetan Buddhist POV, are those three 'arts' still a necessity?
If say there is a 'failure' to actuate those Teachings, where does the 'fault' lie?
In the practitioner who ought to shape up or has the Buddha Dharma failed per se?
Could resorting to such practices be interpreted as placing the Buddha Dharma as second only when it should encompass all aspects of life, mundane or othewise?

Thank you for all of your patience :namaste:

Heruka
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Re: Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby Heruka » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:58 pm


sraddha
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Re: Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby sraddha » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:11 pm

Buddha is the "knowing" itself of all knowledge that can be known. In the Avatamsaka Sutra, Buddha fulfills all our aspirations for what ever we want to attain.

One with Buddha knowledge, will understand and attain all other forms of knowledge including "divination, oracles", but does not dwell in such forms of knowledge as it is incomplete knowing.

It is similar to siddhis and other occult powers that can manifest, they are there, a Buddhist acknowledges them, but continues on his journey to attain complete knowing (Bodhi). :anjali:

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Luke
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Re: Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby Luke » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:14 pm


Heruka
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Re: Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby Heruka » Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:48 pm


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Luke
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Re: Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby Luke » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:23 pm


Heruka
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Re: Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby Heruka » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:11 am

Is practicing mahayana or hinayana dangerous?

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Luke
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Re: Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby Luke » Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:20 pm


Heruka
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Re: Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby Heruka » Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:57 pm


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Re: Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby Heruka » Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:03 pm


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Re: Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:02 am

Live in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.

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Luke
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Re: Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby Luke » Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:24 am

Heruka,

First of all, I never claimed to have an "intimate understanding about the base, path, and fruit." I've stated quite clearly in other places that I'm simply a beginner. However, if I were to become less kind as I advance, I would take it as a sign that I had taken a wrong turn somewhere.

Perhaps you are bristling at the fact that Thornbush's initial post might seem to be critical of Vajrayana if looked at from a certain point of view. Initially, my defenses were up as well, but then I thought that Thornbush may have simply been curious and was attempting to stimulate some discussion. If you feel the need to "fight back" (assuming that there was actually something to fight against) by using words like "Hinayana" which antagonize other Buddhist schools, then that's your choice.

One of the Dalai Lama's main missions is to promote religious harmony. I see it as one of my own as well. Pushing other sects down doesn't bring me up.

As far as some techniques being dangerous goes, I think it's common knowledge that it would be unwise to learn tummo from a book or from someone who isn't fully qualified to teach it because it can cause wind disorders if it's done incorrectly. Other advanced techniques which manipulate the winds and channels could cause similar harm if done improperly.

But of course, when these things are done correctly, they are wonderful spiritual techniques which can lead to Enlightenment more quickly than other methods. My desire to eventually learn these techniques is one of the reasons why I practice Vajrayana.

Sure, like the Dalai Lama, I believe that Tibetan Buddhism is the greatest form of Buddhism. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't have bothered with it. At the same time, I don't think that showing respect and kindness to Buddhists of other schools of Buddhism is prohibited by Tibetan Buddhism. In fact, I think this is very much in accord with it.
Last edited by Luke on Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

thornbush
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Re: Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby thornbush » Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:56 am

Ah well, perhaps I may need to go onto another Forum or dig for myself the specs and mechanics of my own question here. Thank you very much to all who have made this thread an interesting discussion.

sraddha
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Re: Astrology, Divination and Oracles

Postby sraddha » Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:45 am



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