Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:47 pm

Nighthawk wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Virgo wrote:He went all arounnd looking for the highest/ truest teachings. He did incorporate many things but he was seeking the highest, I wouldn't say he just "made a stew".


Have you been to a Gurudwara? Have you spoken to a Bhaiji? You are reaching with your suppositions about what the Guru Granth Sahib is about. Nanak made a truce between Islam and Hinduism. That's about it. Sikhism is theistic. Waheguru is the Creator God. Sikhs mean the Creator with a capital C, and God with a capital G, not the All Creating King aka nature of mind, freedom from extremes. Nanak could have put all the pretty dharma words in the book, that doesn't mean he understood any of it. He was coming from a theistic Hindu standpoint.

Waheguru can also be said to be those things. I googled the "all creating king" aka Samantabhadra/primordial Buddha and I was pretty shocked the read the similarities.
"Oh all you sentient beings of this threefold world [i.e. the entire universe, both visible and invisible]! Because I, the All-Creating Sovereign, have created you, you are My children and equal to Me. Because you are not second to Me, I am present in you ... Oh all you sentient beings of this threefold world, if I were not, you would be non-existent. ... Because all things do not exist outside of Me, I firmly declare that I am all - the All-Creating One." [3]

"From the three aspects [i.e. the Unborn; no ending; source of the wonder of ceaseless creation] of My nature, i.e. that of the All-Creating One, [comes] the fullness which fulfills all needs." And: "What is known as the revealed Buddha is this evidence of My own being. Because it has the centre, the central vigor, it is the Self of everything. As it does not need any deeds, it is the Buddha since the beginning. As it is free of striving and achieving, it is since the beginning known as great. The Great Self is known as the Great Buddha. This evidence which is unborn and non-conceptual is the dimension of Reality [dharmadhatu] ...". [6]

:shock:
Wow.


TAG! You're It!

Amazing isn't it? How theistic the tantra sounds and now non-theistic the Guru Granth Sahib sounds? What is going on? Who am I, where am I? What do I believe? As NNR says, you can't rely on belief.

This is why you can't rely on books. I know I said before you can. But I was dead wrong. I forgot how immersed I am in this Dzogchen thing. You have to go to the lineage to see how the whole deal works. If you listen to Guru Choegyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche today, you will get a direct introduction to your real nature. Then you will understand the "Creator" is you and that is what the All Creating King is saying, not god. In fact, tantras purposely throw you off because you need transmission. If you go to a Gurudwara today, you will get lunch and then you will sing songs to the lovely tunes of the Bhaiji harmonium quartet. You can sing Ek Ong Kar Sat Nam a million times and you will never know what Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche will show you in a few minutes. NNR explains devotion is not the path in Dzogchen. In Sikhism it is. kNow why? Because they are worshipping God by another name. Good luck on your journey down the waskawy wabbit hoes. I was a sikh once. I might know something... Sikhs go to worship the creator in the sky. Deal with it.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:37 pm

deepbluehum wrote: Sikhs go to worship the creator in the sky

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Sally Gross » Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:07 pm

Nighthawk wrote:Waheguru can also be said to be those things. I googled the "all creating king" aka Samantabhadra/primordial Buddha and I was pretty shocked the read the similarities.
"Oh all you sentient beings of this threefold world [i.e. the entire universe, both visible and invisible]! Because I, the All-Creating Sovereign, have created you, you are My children and equal to Me. Because you are not second to Me, I am present in you ... Oh all you sentient beings of this threefold world, if I were not, you would be non-existent. ... Because all things do not exist outside of Me, I firmly declare that I am all - the All-Creating One." [3]

"From the three aspects [i.e. the Unborn; no ending; source of the wonder of ceaseless creation] of My nature, i.e. that of the All-Creating One, [comes] the fullness which fulfills all needs." And: "What is known as the revealed Buddha is this evidence of My own being. Because it has the centre, the central vigor, it is the Self of everything. As it does not need any deeds, it is the Buddha since the beginning. As it is free of striving and achieving, it is since the beginning known as great. The Great Self is known as the Great Buddha. This evidence which is unborn and non-conceptual is the dimension of Reality [dharmadhatu] ...". [6]

:shock:
Wow.


The parallels, whether merely apparent or actual, are not restricted to Sikhism. A significant strand of tradition in Jewish, Christian and Muslim theology is apophatic, conceiving of God in negative terms. For the Rambam (Moses Maimonides), for example, all talk about God is negative in point of fact: one can say what God is not, but not what God is. In arguing this, Maimonides echoed the great philosophers of Islam. Christian traditions of negative tyheology go way back -- pseudo-Dionysius, for example; and if you look at The Cloud of Unknowing, a key piece of medieval English mystical writing, you will get some sense of how it works itself out there as well.

It is one thing to point to apparent parallels, which are doubtless legion; and quite another thing to appeal to them as putative evidence that the founder of Sikhism, the medieval Muslim philosophers, Maimonides or whoever else, were closet Buddhists, practitioners of Dzogchen, or directly influenced by Buddhism or Dzogchen. Nanak may have been influenced to some degree or other; but unless apophatic theism is also influenced, the conception of God which is at stake seems to have been elaborated elsewhere independently of Buddhist influences and is at odds with Buddhist teaching in significant respects. Perhaps the most crucial and fundamental point of difference is that apophatic conceptions of God, negative though they are, nevertheless conceive of God (whatever the word means) as Creator of all from nothing, the reason why there is anything at all rather than nothing. Whether this notion is within the bonds of sense or not, and whether the question "why is there anything at all rather than nothing" falls within the bounds of sense is another matter. (My own view is that both the notion and the question are outside the bounds of sense and are therefore meaningless, though the question appears to be meaningful until it is examined more carefully). Sufism and Advaita inter alia, rather than Samye, look like more fruitful places to seek the roots of the God-conception in Sikhism.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Jikan » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:41 pm

Here is an analysis that is of some (not complete) relevance to this discussion.

http://www.gurmukhyoga.com/forum/index. ... =page&id=1
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:53 pm

Jikan wrote:Here is an analysis that is of some (not complete) relevance to this discussion.

http://www.gurmukhyoga.com/forum/index. ... =page&id=1

This guy (the author) is just pissed off that a Sikh was teaching yoga. Many Sikhs get up in arms about that. But yoga or not the question here is more about Guru Nanak's spiritual practices, influences, and views than it is about 3Ho.

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby deepbluehum » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:05 pm

Sally Gross wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:Waheguru can also be said to be those things. I googled the "all creating king" aka Samantabhadra/primordial Buddha and I was pretty shocked the read the similarities.
"Oh all you sentient beings of this threefold world [i.e. the entire universe, both visible and invisible]! Because I, the All-Creating Sovereign, have created you, you are My children and equal to Me. Because you are not second to Me, I am present in you ... Oh all you sentient beings of this threefold world, if I were not, you would be non-existent. ... Because all things do not exist outside of Me, I firmly declare that I am all - the All-Creating One." [3]

"From the three aspects [i.e. the Unborn; no ending; source of the wonder of ceaseless creation] of My nature, i.e. that of the All-Creating One, [comes] the fullness which fulfills all needs." And: "What is known as the revealed Buddha is this evidence of My own being. Because it has the centre, the central vigor, it is the Self of everything. As it does not need any deeds, it is the Buddha since the beginning. As it is free of striving and achieving, it is since the beginning known as great. The Great Self is known as the Great Buddha. This evidence which is unborn and non-conceptual is the dimension of Reality [dharmadhatu] ...". [6]

:shock:
Wow.


The parallels, whether merely apparent or actual, are not restricted to Sikhism. A significant strand of tradition in Jewish, Christian and Muslim theology is apophatic, conceiving of God in negative terms. For the Rambam (Moses Maimonides), for example, all talk about God is negative in point of fact: one can say what God is not, but not what God is. In arguing this, Maimonides echoed the great philosophers of Islam. Christian traditions of negative tyheology go way back -- pseudo-Dionysius, for example; and if you look at The Cloud of Unknowing, a key piece of medieval English mystical writing, you will get some sense of how it works itself out there as well.

It is one thing to point to apparent parallels, which are doubtless legion; and quite another thing to appeal to them as putative evidence that the founder of Sikhism, the medieval Muslim philosophers, Maimonides or whoever else, were closet Buddhists, practitioners of Dzogchen, or directly influenced by Buddhism or Dzogchen. Nanak may have been influenced to some degree or other; but unless apophatic theism is also influenced, the conception of God which is at stake seems to have been elaborated elsewhere independently of Buddhist influences and is at odds with Buddhist teaching in significant respects. Perhaps the most crucial and fundamental point of difference is that apophatic conceptions of God, negative though they are, nevertheless conceive of God (whatever the word means) as Creator of all from nothing, the reason why there is anything at all rather than nothing. Whether this notion is within the bonds of sense or not, and whether the question "why is there anything at all rather than nothing" falls within the bounds of sense is another matter. (My own view is that both the notion and the question are outside the bounds of sense and are therefore meaningless, though the question appears to be meaningful until it is examined more carefully). Sufism and Advaita inter alia, rather than Samye, look like more fruitful places to seek the roots of the God-conception in Sikhism.


Nah, it's Islam. 100%
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby asunthatneversets » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:43 am

deepbluehum wrote:That's nice and beautiful bla bla bla. But that won't change Islam's history of invading peaceful nations,


Nothing which hasn't been done by countless other nations or groups identifying with particular ideologies.

deepbluehum wrote:slaughtering their children and kidnapping and raping their women to transform the society into Islamic nation.


Nothing which hasn't been done by countless other nations or groups identifying with particular ideologies.

deepbluehum wrote:Nothing about my touchy feelies can change that. Next you are going to celebrate the virtues of communism. Islam and communism are the culprits of destruction against Buddha dharma too. I hope they are destroyed together.


No virtues have been celebrated thus far to warrant further celebration of any ideology (be it communism or any other). It has nothing to do with celebrating virtues. It comes down to identification with thought and attachment to belief. If you think Islam or communism could possibly destroy the dharma then you've mistook the dharma for a belief system yourself. You don't understand that by wishing for the demise of Islam or communism you're only contributing to the belief identified prejudice you claim to be rejecting. Feeding the fires of separation and sewing the seeds of hate and war all in the name of peace. That isn't what the Buddha taught. By eradicating Islam or communism you merely replace one ideology with another and the ignorance persists. The conflict is within the mind and must be resolved within the mind. It's a psychological crisis. You downplay addressing the problem within because you don't understand (don't seem to at least), and that's ok, if I was to wholeheartedly reject your message I would be falling victim to the same delusion. So please continue with your prejudiced discrimination and hold an entire belief system accountable for the actions of radical subsidiary factions and rouge extremists. It's unsound logic in my eyes but to each their own.

That being said I understand you're an opinionated person and there's nothing wrong with that, we all are in our own ways. So no contention here, I just don't agree, but sometimes agreeing to disagree is the best route.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby catmoon » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:01 am

Hm. Dzogchen is as atheistic as any other branch of Buddhism. If Sikhism were based on Dzogchen, the Sikhs woud all be atheists too.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Blue Garuda » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:21 am

catmoon wrote:Hm. Dzogchen is as atheistic as any other branch of Buddhism. If Sikhism were based on Dzogchen, the Sikhs woud all be atheists too.


Somewhere early in the thread, people discussed what was meant by 'God' and whether that was personified or a term for an energy or nature within us, etc.

In India, Hindus may appear polytheistic but actually be expressing the natural forces of creation and destruction as personified through the deities and ultimately 'God'.
Most Hindus I met were very relaxed about every religious practice being a form of 'God' including Buddhism and Jainism. I noted that the Hindu practice of Darsana (Darshan) in linking with the nature of the deity with which eye contact is made, to be similar to Buddhists seeking to link with the nature of Shakyamuni, other Buddhas and of course with their Guru through Guruyoga - of course a form of Dzogchen practice.

Anyway, you might now trigger 10 pages of 'Is Buddhist Atheistic' as you chose that as the assumption for your conclusion about Sikhs. LOL :)
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:10 am

Blue Garuda wrote:
catmoon wrote:Hm. Dzogchen is as atheistic as any other branch of Buddhism. If Sikhism were based on Dzogchen, the Sikhs woud all be atheists too.


Somewhere early in the thread, people discussed what was meant by 'God' and whether that was personified or a term for an energy or nature within us, etc.

Most Hindus I met were very relaxed about every religious practice being a form of 'God' including Buddhism and Jainism. I noted that the Hindu practice of Darsana (Darshan) in linking with the nature of the deity with which eye contact is made, to be similar to Buddhists seeking to link with the nature of Shakyamuni, other Buddhas and of course with their Guru through Guruyoga - of course a form of Dzogchen practice.

Anyway, you might now trigger 10 pages of 'Is Buddhist Atheistic' as you chose that as the assumption for your conclusion about Sikhs. LOL :)



Tashi delek,


I have met some Hindhus in Varanasi and they are very carefull if they start discussing Dharma with Buddists.

Some saddhus i have met were very furious, wild but also very clever.

In Tantra there are a lot of similarities sure in case of the Yogini Tantras. But the aim in Hindhu Yogini Tantras is related to the God Shiva.
Brahman followers and Vishnu folowers have another God. It was for me not so clear what the diffinition of a Hindhu was/is.

Since Patanjali there seems to be another Hindhu system popular in India. India has so its popular deities like Indra one time was and also Brahman.

But one of the main differences between Shikkism and Buddhism would be that Gods are not eternal beings. They have to die like all what is composed according Buddhism and the 6 realms.

There is a big agreement between Buddhism and Hindhuism regarding the vertical and horizontal Kosmos. :namaste:


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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby DorjeVajra » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:11 pm

Comparative Religious And Philosophies : Anthropomorphlsm And Divinity - Page 308 Nanak Lama

http://books.google.no/books?id=yivKuDm ... ak&f=false

Read this book and you find the answer you are looking for ...

Hidden Teachings of Tibet: An Explanation of the Terma Tradition of Tibetan Buddhism

http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Teachings- ... 086171122X
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby Sherab Rigdrol » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:11 pm

Really disappointed to see the name Yogi Bhajan or his made up exercises being thrown around in this thread. That is not Sikhism, nor yoga. Any mention of him or his cult takes away from your argument. If you want something to bite your teeth into, I suggest you read this.
http://www.mountainrunnerdoc.com/santmat1.html
Sant Mat is one of few authentic esoteric practices of Sikhism. They do a lot of comparative analysis with dzogchen. Enjoy!
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby Greg » Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:47 am

Virgo wrote:I will share one article now, but the rest later on tonight.

The more I read the more I see that Guru Nanak was considered a siddha outisde of the punjab. Apperently, he is also an emenation of Guru Rinpoche.

I am not sure who this tibetan lama is but this is what he had to say about Guru Nanak and the Sikh religion:

By Tarungpa Tulku (As published in the Indian Express, March 6th, 1966)

"It gave me great pleasure when I was asked to write this article as I have wanted for a long time to say something about my impressions of the Religion of the Sikhs in India, and my connections with it. After my escape from Tibet, I lived as a refugee in India for several years, alongside so many of my countrymen. There I had the great good fortune to be looked after by a Sikh family, by Baba Bedi, his English wife, and their three children. While I was with them, I was able to visit many of the Sikh holy places and I was given hospitality there.

My interest in Sikhism is not only a personal one, however. In Tibet, Guru Nanak is revered as an emanation of Guru Padmasambhava. Many of our pilgrims visited Amritsar and other holy places which they looked upon as equal in importance to Buddha-Gaya. They always said that the Sikhs treated them with great respect and were very hospitable: " as our expression goes, they bowed down to their feet." It seems that the Sikhs really practice the doctrine of their religion; perhaps they are the only ones who give such wonderful dana to travellers.

Most Tibetans know that Guru Nanak visited Tibet, and the mystical ideas of our two religions are very similar. I have noticed that the Sikhs never worship images in their shrines, but that there is in the centre the book, the Guru Granth Sahib. In our tradition, one of the last things that the Buddha said was that in the dark age after his death he would return in the form of books. "At that time," he said, "look up to me and respect me." Just as we do not believe in mystifying rituals, so in the Sikh ceremonies, it seems that the people simply read and contemplate the words of their text, so that no misunderstandings arise.

I was interested in the Sikh symbolism of the three daggers: in Buddhism, a knife often appears as the cutting off of the roots of the three poison, greed, hatred and illusion. I was also very interested in the Sikh practice never to cut one's hair, as this is also the practice among Tibetan hermits and contemplatives. The most famous of these was Milarepa, who said that there were three things that should be left in their natural state; one should not cut one's hair, dye one's clothes, nor change one's mind...

Both Guru Nanak and the Buddha said to their followers that the real nature of the universe should not be limited by the idea of personal god and gods. Those who made offerings at their shrines should remember that the whole universe was the power offering offered before and to itself. ...

it is my wish one day to translate the Guru Granth Sahib into Tibetan..."

Kevin


Tarungpa Tulku = Chogyam Trungpa
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby SunnSamadh » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:22 am

deepbluehum wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
TAG! You're It!

Amazing isn't it? How theistic the tantra sounds and now non-theistic the Guru Granth Sahib sounds? What is going on? Who am I, where am I? What do I believe? As NNR says, you can't rely on belief.

This is why you can't rely on books. I know I said before you can. But I was dead wrong. I forgot how immersed I am in this Dzogchen thing. You have to go to the lineage to see how the whole deal works. If you listen to Guru Choegyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche today, you will get a direct introduction to your real nature. Then you will understand the "Creator" is you and that is what the All Creating King is saying, not god. In fact, tantras purposely throw you off because you need transmission. If you go to a Gurudwara today, you will get lunch and then you will sing songs to the lovely tunes of the Bhaiji harmonium quartet. You can sing Ek Ong Kar Sat Nam a million times and you will never know what Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche will show you in a few minutes. NNR explains devotion is not the path in Dzogchen. In Sikhism it is. kNow why? Because they are worshipping God by another name. Good luck on your journey down the waskawy wabbit hoes. I was a sikh once. I might know something... Sikhs go to worship the creator in the sky. Deal with it.


I am very distressed at reading the things that you have written about Sikhism. You seem to be in extreme ignorance of Sikh philosophy.

I myself was born into a Sikh family and found a great interest in spiritual pursuits. It is this interest which has driven me to believe that Dzogchen expounds the highest of philosophy, and the very same of which is expounded by the Sikh Gurus. Sikhs do not worship a creator in the sky, and that is an incredible misrepresentation. You don't seem to understand that singing songs and Naam Japna, or simran is a tool meant to help one focus on achieving the highest state of the supreme reality. Guru Nanak was incredibly important as he took highly abstract and sublime truths and fit them under the category of God, so as to better reach the people of that time. It would take me far to long to explain the profound sublime truth behind Guru Nanak's gospel, or how it relates to Dzogchen, but I'll leave something simple and succinct.

aapeh sunn aapeh sukh aasan.
He Himself is in the absolute state of primal meditation; He Himself is in the seat of
peace.

Sunn here is translated as the absolute state of primal meditation.

sunn samaaDh naam ras maatay.
In deepest Samaadhi, they are intoxicated with the essence of the Naam.

Sunn samaadh is the deepest state of meditation, and in it, one is intoxicated with the essence of the Naam. The concept of the Naam is integral to the Gurus Bani, and here you are given perhaps a little understanding of what it is. I can relate it, through my own experience, as being a concept that describes that which cannot be conceptualized, the infinite and boundless. The ultimate experience of Dzogchen, brought into human terms, into conceptual awareness.

sargun nirgun nirankaar sunn samaaDhee aap.
He possesses all qualities; He transcends all qualities; He is the Formless Lord. He
Himself is in Primal Samaadhi.

I think this one should make it abundantly clear for each person who reads this. HE, the concept upon which we apply the label of God in Sikhism, is Sunn Samaadhee. It is translated as if he is in sunn samaadhee, but this is an improper translation. I will explain why:

Sargun means, possessive of all qualities, or, all attributes.
Nirgun means, possessive of no qualities, or, no attributes.
Nirankaar means, without form. There is deeper significance and meaning to this which is hard to describe, but this is the simple way to put it.
Sunn Samaadhee means, meditation of emptiness, it is expressed as being the most primal state.

The only other word in this line is "aap", which simply mean "you". Thus, all these terms are attributes of "aap", simply denoting that God is not in sunn samadhi, but rather, is sunn samadhi.

Another thing important about the word usage of "aap" and the entire set of scriptures is that, during their reading, one loses ego, sense of self and becomes like the very attributes and things he reads. This is the whole point of simran and Naam japna. Through constant meditation, love for, and repetition of, these scriptures, one adopts the very attributes described. "Aap" ceases to simply mean "you" as in another, but becomes "you" as in reference to the self.

I hope I dispelled some misunderstandings and shed some light on the subject.

PS: Someone made reference to the idea of Raaj Karega Khalsa a few pages back and I'd like to clarify. This translates simply to, the pure shall in the future rule the world. This term does not denote the Khalsa panth, the organization founded by the tenth guru to combat tyranny and defend Sikh principles.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby Adamantine » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:34 am

:good: Thank you SunnSamadh
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby tobes » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:09 am

SunnSamadh wrote:I am very distressed at reading the things that you have written about Sikhism. You seem to be in extreme ignorance of Sikh philosophy.

I myself was born into a Sikh family and found a great interest in spiritual pursuits. It is this interest which has driven me to believe that Dzogchen expounds the highest of philosophy, and the very same of which is expounded by the Sikh Gurus. Sikhs do not worship a creator in the sky, and that is an incredible misrepresentation. You don't seem to understand that singing songs and Naam Japna, or simran is a tool meant to help one focus on achieving the highest state of the supreme reality. Guru Nanak was incredibly important as he took highly abstract and sublime truths and fit them under the category of God, so as to better reach the people of that time. It would take me far to long to explain the profound sublime truth behind Guru Nanak's gospel, or how it relates to Dzogchen, but I'll leave something simple and succinct.

aapeh sunn aapeh sukh aasan.
He Himself is in the absolute state of primal meditation; He Himself is in the seat of
peace.

Sunn here is translated as the absolute state of primal meditation.

sunn samaaDh naam ras maatay.
In deepest Samaadhi, they are intoxicated with the essence of the Naam.

Sunn samaadh is the deepest state of meditation, and in it, one is intoxicated with the essence of the Naam. The concept of the Naam is integral to the Gurus Bani, and here you are given perhaps a little understanding of what it is. I can relate it, through my own experience, as being a concept that describes that which cannot be conceptualized, the infinite and boundless. The ultimate experience of Dzogchen, brought into human terms, into conceptual awareness.

sargun nirgun nirankaar sunn samaaDhee aap.
He possesses all qualities; He transcends all qualities; He is the Formless Lord. He
Himself is in Primal Samaadhi.

I think this one should make it abundantly clear for each person who reads this. HE, the concept upon which we apply the label of God in Sikhism, is Sunn Samaadhee. It is translated as if he is in sunn samaadhee, but this is an improper translation. I will explain why:

Sargun means, possessive of all qualities, or, all attributes.
Nirgun means, possessive of no qualities, or, no attributes.
Nirankaar means, without form. There is deeper significance and meaning to this which is hard to describe, but this is the simple way to put it.
Sunn Samaadhee means, meditation of emptiness, it is expressed as being the most primal state.

The only other word in this line is "aap", which simply mean "you". Thus, all these terms are attributes of "aap", simply denoting that God is not in sunn samadhi, but rather, is sunn samadhi.

Another thing important about the word usage of "aap" and the entire set of scriptures is that, during their reading, one loses ego, sense of self and becomes like the very attributes and things he reads. This is the whole point of simran and Naam japna. Through constant meditation, love for, and repetition of, these scriptures, one adopts the very attributes described. "Aap" ceases to simply mean "you" as in another, but becomes "you" as in reference to the self.

I hope I dispelled some misunderstandings and shed some light on the subject.

PS: Someone made reference to the idea of Raaj Karega Khalsa a few pages back and I'd like to clarify. This translates simply to, the pure shall in the future rule the world. This term does not denote the Khalsa panth, the organization founded by the tenth guru to combat tyranny and defend Sikh principles.


Do not be distressed SunnSamadhi. When people make deeply ignorant and prejudicial statements about traditions they know nothing about, it reflects poorly on only one thing: them.

Buddhist converts (of which this forum is largely made up of) are somewhat prone to robustly defend Buddhism (or particular strands within) against just about anything perceived to be 'non-buddhist' (i.e. science, western philosophies, other religions etc). I think it is just part of the process that converts have to go through to work out what is true for them. It is unfortunate that much ignorant posturing about these other things takes place, and I often worry about where it is all leading. Gently offering true insight against this ignorance is all that can be done - as you have done here.

Thankyou for this.

:anjali:
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby Wayfarer » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:55 am

I have found a Sikh website http://www.gurbani.org which I think is basically the work of an individual, who says he is a retired civil engineer. No matter, though, the point is, I find myself nodding in agreement to every article in it.

:anjali:

//edit// And as Ramakrishna said, there are names for 'water' in every language, but water is water.
Learn to do good, refrain from evil, purify the mind ~ this is the teaching of the Buddhas
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby muni » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:10 am

Many wars are already passed by right methods/terms while peace is the result from trusting awaken nature and not ideation.

Jeeprs: Water is Water. :smile:
"One time ... this great old Zen Master, Shunryu Suzuki ... said 'Enlightenment is not like taking a shower. When you take shower, you know how long it takes, you know how long it takes to dry your body. But, ... you can't predict enlightenment. It can happen at any moment. It may not happen for a long time.'

So one of the tricks of enlightenment (I guess I have to provide some tricks), is to have a sincere intention and to go beyond everything to realize this thing called Buddha Nature or the Dharmakaya. You have to have intention. "Therefore," Buddha said in one of those sutras, "The intention is the forerunner of all activities." So intention determines everything. If we have a sincere intention to be liberated; to be enlightened, then yes, then the meditation - whatever method you do - it will help you to be enlightened."


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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby muni » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:32 pm

From the Sikh website: "ALL beings are considered as part and parcel of the same ONE Light!"

I suppose we can read that in different ways, but I see here written:

From Anam Thubten:
"Mind has no mind.
Mind is luminous."


Dharmakaya and the rupakayas are like the sun and its rays. They radiate at all times and in all places, without any prejudice. (Uttaratantra)


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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:30 pm

muni wrote:From Anam Thubten:
"Mind has no mind.
Mind is luminous."

Anam Thubten is great, and he may very well have said that, but that's basically a well known passage from the Prajñāpāramitā, see:
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Perfection_of_Wisdom_Sutra_in_Eight_Thousand_Lines#Famous_Quotations
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
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