self

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Re: self

Postby Aemilius » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:01 pm

TMingyur wrote:...
We are here not "in legal matters". Do not try to escape the fact that in a thread dealing with the "self" in a buddhist forum you said "Self is a distinct mental event"

Why not use the sayings of catholics as arguments? :)

Kind regards


"legal matters" was a practical example of buddhist thinking, it was there just to take the foregoing slightly theoretical thinking onto a practical platform, it was a wholly buddhistic example, any reference to "catholicism" is inappropriate.

Thank you for your interest!
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Re: self

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:59 pm

Aemilius wrote:Self is a mental event that anticipates a future existent-moment of a present momentary body-mind complex (the one in which this mental event occurs).


Tashi delek Aemilius :)

Thanks for your post.

Regarding the self with its grasping to objects, or the second mind of karmic traces and its experiences.
It is all dualistic seen and not in oneness.
This dualism is the cause of the (endless) wandering in Samsara, not knowing that we only make interpretations about our seeings. So the most color their object by their karma e.g. their level of understanding.

This dualistic mind or our second mind, makes 3 events from one moment.
Therefore yesterday is not existing and neither tomorrow.
What actual exist, that is here and now, like it always was and is.
Only the second mind of karma does not know that his inherent Natural State, who was never born, does not know the time, or the windrose and its directions.

All this NOT knowing about the ultimate truth or our inherent Bodhicitta / Sugatagarbha / Natural State / Buddhahood, is called Ma rigpa / Avidya.

If not known Rigpa, is left only the mind of karma e.g. the second mind.
So the problem of our not be aware of our inherent Buddha, is that we cannot deal or be aware of our inherent already existing pure Buddha.

That means that we (can) experience:

- 3 times / who do not exist at all
- the windrose / which does not exist like such
- Karma which is illusion because there is + and - which has to be transformed etc.
- Illusionary bodies / The Buddhas do not move from their seat when they assume an illusionary Body
- Nirvana and Samsara as different
- Different Bardos whereas there is no death or somebody who comes and goes.
- Alaya Vinjana which colours all our objects so that it is understandable according ones karma = ones level of understanding
- Self created realms where the same karmic beings dwell with their blurred visions
- So mind did create hell and not a God etc. Mind did create heaven etc.
- All in the 6 realms experience suffering and an end of their illusionary body = death and reborn
- Attachment to objects / an object has by its own no mind it is the mind who does like that, out of Ma rigpa.

Yes the self causes a future because the self is illusion.
It, the self does not know that he/she cannot die, or be born.
What dies is illusion or the big truth of the Karma man / people.

So it is that illusion is seen as true and what is not seen, our inherent Buddha, that is not existing.
So is born eternalism and nihilism..............



Best wishes with our individual practice

Mutsog Marro
Kalden Yungdrung
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: self

Postby Aemilius » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:32 pm

Hi Kalden Yungdrung!

I don't think it is wise to maintain that present exists, and past and future do not exist. Even Buddhas can remember the past and see to the future. How would that be possible if they do not exist? or if they are somehow different from the present ?
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Re: self

Postby Aemilius » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:42 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
TMingyur wrote:As a challenge :) : This is called wrong view because it is an identity view. Identity view is identifying "self" which is like "the horn of the hare" with one of the aggregates.

Kind regards


Identity of what with what ?


Aemilius wrote:Self is a distinct mental event



Kind regards



Even Buddha uses the word self, for example in the Dhammapada Canto XII The Self, in verse 160. He says:" Self is the Lord of self; what higher Lord could there be ? etc..."
One does not adhere to a false view merely because one uses the word self, see?
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Re: self

Postby ground » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:50 pm

Aemilius wrote: Even Buddha uses the word self, for example in the Dhammapada Canto XII The Self, in verse 160. He says:" Self is the Lord of self; what higher Lord could there be ? etc..."
One does not adhere to a false view merely because one uses the word self, see?


Obviously you do not get the difference between using the word and identifying "self" with one of the aggregates.

Aemilius wrote: Thank you for your interest!



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Re: self

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:23 pm

Aemilius wrote:Hi Kalden Yungdrung!

I don't think it is wise to maintain that present exists, and past and future do not exist. Even Buddhas can remember the past and see to the future. How would that be possible if they do not exist? or if they are somehow different from the present ?



Tashi delek Aemilius, :)

Thanks for your reply.

In the mind of karma all illusions do/can exist.
All is based upon the differences or dualisms or i and that.

- Buddhas have memory?
- Then they maintain the Alaya vinjana habit of thoughts?
- And thoughts are the outcome of memory?
- In the memory is also present karma in a certain static way.
- Thoughts are sometimes the froozen or static habits of an illusionary being.

I guess that if a Buddha becomes more illusion, then he assumes that illusionary human body which is seen in relation with all kinds of our so called "normal world" of the human habits.

In that kaya He sure must mention memory, 3 times, karma etc.
Dharma is told in our habitual good to understand language which is based on words.
And words are basicly illusion because they never can have one meaning, are composed etc.

So a Buddha is specialized in the right methods, answers regarding his followers, who are dwelling in an illusionary body and have a lot of illusionary habits (Karma)

I guess that if a Buddha would stand beside my neighbour, he would say, what a strange tall man. He never would recognize/see the Buddha.

Water is karmic seen by pretas as puss and by humans as water.
By the Gods as ambrosia and by the hell beings as fire.

So how can 1 thing become many different things?
I guess it is mind made the manifestations of water.

I agree ,Buddhas can see with the eyes of the illusionary beings.
They even can assume such a body without leaving their seats.
So they are temporal, illusionary beings too sometimes.....
And here, they act according the sentient beings they visit out of compassion, with all the human customs to communicate with these beings. But they never have a falling back into the karma of that world they visit, however they make use of many illusions in those worlds they visit.


Best wishes for your practice :D


Mutsog Marro
Kalden Yungdrung
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: self

Postby Aemilius » Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:41 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Aemilius wrote: Even Buddha uses the word self, for example in the Dhammapada Canto XII The Self, in verse 160. He says:" Self is the Lord of self; what higher Lord could there be ? etc..."
One does not adhere to a false view merely because one uses the word self, see?


Obviously you do not get the difference between using the word and identifying "self" with one of the aggregates.



It is a difficult question, normally language is used to identify things, like: "this is a car, that is a house,... "
You identify yourself or your classmates in an old photograph on the basis of how they look, which means their "form" in buddhist terminology.
In remembering you identify your ownself mainly from how you felt and how you thought at that particular time, which in buddhist language means vedana, samnja, samskara and vijnana aggregates.
In remembering identification is an essential element.
Even Buddha when He attains enlightenment under the Bodhitree remembers His many hundreds, His many thousands of previous lives, and He sees, "I was this, such was my clan, such was my family, such was my occupation, under such circumstances I lived, under such circumstances I died", thus the element of identification is obvious in Buddha's case too.
(The tradition maintains that everyone who attains enlightenment can see and remember his past lifetimes, to a larger a smaller degree, depending on various factors.)
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Re: self

Postby ground » Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:49 pm

Well, you don't get it. I will leave it at that.


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Re: self

Postby Aemilius » Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:49 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Aemilius wrote:Hi Kalden Yungdrung!

I don't think it is wise to maintain that present exists, and past and future do not exist. Even Buddhas can remember the past and see to the future. How would that be possible if they do not exist? or if they are somehow different from the present ?



Tashi delek Aemilius, :)

Thanks for your reply.

In the mind of karma all illusions do/can exist.
All is based upon the differences or dualisms or i and that.

- Buddhas have memory?
- Then they maintain the Alaya vinjana habit of thoughts?
- And thoughts are the outcome of memory?
- In the memory is also present karma in a certain static way.
- Thoughts are sometimes the froozen or static habits of an illusionary being.

I guess that if a Buddha becomes more illusion, then he assumes that illusionary human body which is seen in relation with all kinds of our so called "normal world" of the human habits.

In that kaya He sure must mention memory, 3 times, karma etc.
Dharma is told in our habitual good to understand language which is based on words.
And words are basicly illusion because they never can have one meaning, are composed etc.

So a Buddha is specialized in the right methods, answers regarding his followers, who are dwelling in an illusionary body and have a lot of illusionary habits (Karma)

I guess that if a Buddha would stand beside my neighbour, he would say, what a strange tall man. He never would recognize/see the Buddha.

Water is karmic seen by pretas as puss and by humans as water.
By the Gods as ambrosia and by the hell beings as fire.

So how can 1 thing become many different things?
I guess it is mind made the manifestations of water.

I agree ,Buddhas can see with the eyes of the illusionary beings.
They even can assume such a body without leaving their seats.
So they are temporal, illusionary beings too sometimes.....
And here, they act according the sentient beings they visit out of compassion, with all the human customs to communicate with these beings. But they never have a falling back into the karma of that world they visit, however they make use of many illusions in those worlds they visit.


Best wishes for your practice :D


Mutsog Marro
Kalden Yungdrung


Hi! You say "mindmade manifestations of water", why not of puss ? of ambrosia? or of mind only ?

Aemilius
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Re: self

Postby White Lotus » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:39 pm

dear friends, from my perspective the moment is the higher Self, the True Self. this self has no I or Mine. it is not a self. infact since the Self does not exist neither to does the present moment and since the present is non existent so also are the future and the past.

there is actually no self whatsoever, anywhere, neither does anyone or anything have a mind. the Fundmental Mind is the Fundamental Self. there is no mind, there is no self.

with love from White Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: self

Postby Aemilius » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:06 am

White Lotus wrote:dear friends, from my perspective the moment is the higher Self, the True Self. this self has no I or Mine. it is not a self. infact since the Self does not exist neither to does the present moment and since the present is non existent so also are the future and the past.

there is actually no self whatsoever, anywhere, neither does anyone or anything have a mind. the Fundmental Mind is the Fundamental Self. there is no mind, there is no self.

with love from White Lotus.


Your expression is inspired, it carries the stamp of genuine experience.
Nevertheless, who pays your rent? Do you pay it yourself? Or does some other person pay it ?

kindly
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Re: self

Postby White Lotus » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:31 pm

I pay my rent. the I that does not exist! the rent is just so. i pay not a penny, but that less than a penny is not cheap!

love White Lotus. x
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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