question on rainzi statement

question on rainzi statement

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:49 pm

Hello dharma friends

Rinzai said :
" Followers of the Way, do you want to attain this Dharma? Then it is indeed necessary to become a man who has nothing further to seek "

Seek for what ?
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Re: question on rainzi statement

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:27 pm

Don't know about specific Rinzai teaching, but this is basic to all Buddhism that i'm aware of.

I think the idea is that clinging to hope of a result, or fear of failure can only lead to more discursive thought, and not to progress on the path. So it is an instruction to give up lofty goals and expectations, and to just practice.
"We're chained to the world and we all gotta pull" -Tom Waits
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Re: question on rainzi statement

Postby Lotus_Bitch » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:59 pm

It reminds me of the Heart Sutra or the Diamond Sutra when I read that. Have you thought about posing this question to one of teachers over on zenforuminternational? I think it will be helpful to pose the question there: http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewforum.php?f=32&sid=e61f66fc505278d22e88ac0cc7cddbc5

:namaste:
Many meditators know how to meditate,
But only a few know how to dismantle [mental clinging].
- Je Gyare
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Re: question on rainzi statement

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:06 pm

Lotus_Bitch wrote:It reminds me of the Heart Sutra or the Diamond Sutra when I read that. Have you thought about posing this question to one of teachers over on zenforuminternational? I think it will be helpful to pose the question there: http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewforum.php?f=32&sid=e61f66fc505278d22e88ac0cc7cddbc5

:namaste:


I was post some topic in this forum but they not accept my post until now !
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Re: question on rainzi statement

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:09 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Don't know about specific Rinzai teaching, but this is basic to all Buddhism that i'm aware of.

I think the idea is that clinging to hope of a result, or fear of failure can only lead to more discursive thought, and not to progress on the path. So it is an instruction to give up lofty goals and expectations, and to just practice.


I don't think master rainzai believe in practice he said :
"I tell you this: There is no Buddha, no Dharma, no training and no realization. What are you so hotly chasing? Putting a head on top of your head, you blind fools? Your head is right where it should be. What are you lacking ? "
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Re: question on rainzi statement

Postby seeker242 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:26 am

Lin-Chi touches on this. from "The Zen Teachings of Master Lin-Chi" translated by Burton Watson http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... in-Chi.htm

"If you want to be no different from the patriarchs and buddhas, then never look for something outside yourselves. The clean pure light in a moment of your mind--that is the Essence-body of the Buddha lodged in you. The undifferentiated light in a moment of your mind~that is the Bliss-body of the Buddha lodged in you. The undiscriminating light in a moment of your mind--that is the Transformtion-body of the Buddha lodged in you. These three types of bodies are you, the person who stands before me now listening to this lecture on the Dharma! And simply because you do not rush around seeking anything outside yourselves, you can command these fine faculties.

Someone asked, "What was Bodhidharma's purpose in coming from the west?" The Master said, "If he had had a purpose, he wouldn't have been able to save even himself!"The questioner said, "If he had no purpose, then how did the Second Patriarch manage to get the Dharma?" The Master said, "Getting means not getting." "If it means not getting," said the questioner, "then what do you mean by not getting?"

The Master said, "You can't seem to stop your mind from racing around everywhere seeking something. That's why the patriarch said, 'Hopeless fellows--using their heads to look for their heads!' You must right now turn your light around and shine it on yourselves, not go seeking somewhere else. Then you will understand that in body and mind you are no different
from the patriarchs and the buddhas, and that there is nothing to do. Do that and you may speak of'getting the Dharma.'
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: question on rainzi statement

Postby Qianxi » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:37 am

The basic idea is emphasising vigorous spontaneity.

So pretty much the opposite of the crossword-like activity of looking up the original and poking holes in the translation.
:thinking:
http://www.acharia.org/downloads/The_Te ... Rinzai.pdf
Followers of the Way, do you want to attain this Dharma? Then it is indeed necessary to become a man who has nothing further to seek. Weakness and complacency make one incapable ot it, just as thin butter milk cannot be kept in a cracked pot.

http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T47n1985_001
道流。爾若欲得如法。直須是大丈夫兒始得。若萎萎隨隨地。則不得也。夫如[斯/瓦]嗄之器。不堪貯醍醐。

For some reason the translator has replaced 大丈夫兒 'real manly man' with 'man who has nothing further to seek' which elsewhere in the document is used by the translator to translate 無事人 'a man of no status'/'idle man'/'a man unconcerned with the affairs of the world'
(I'm just guessing at these meanings, you'd need to know the history of their use in Zen texts to give a proper translation. Unfortunately it seems the translator may not be much more clued in than me)

Edit: a professional reliable looking translation translates 大丈夫兒 (My 'real manly man') as 'man of great resolve'. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q_Je ... &q&f=false
and translates 無事人 (my 'idle man' pdf translator's 'man who has nothing further to seek') as 'man with nothing to do', http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q_Je ... &q&f=false which is a lot better than 'idle', and makes clear that there's nothing about 'seeking' in the Chinese.
Anyway, the 'man with nothing to do' doesn't belong in this clay pot story, it belongs in another Linji story.
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Re: question on rainzi statement

Postby LastLegend » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:37 am

Seeking for anything even Buddha. You are is what you are now already liberated. I think that's what it means.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Linjii
―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―
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Re: question on rainzi statement

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:08 pm

Thank you my friends
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Re: question on rainzi statement

Postby tingdzin » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:19 am

It is very important to understand that Zen teachings cannot be really understood outside of the context of sincere, dedicated, and long-lasting training. To simply try to understand the words will not get you anywhere. They are just fingers pointing at the moon, particularly in Rinzai Zen.
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