New Kadampa Tradition

[Mr. G]

It seems we know the positions of the following schools regarding Setrap (please correct me if I'm wrong):

Nyingma: Worldly Protector
Sakya: Worldly Protector
Kagyu: Worldly Protector

And none believe in taking refuge in a worldly protector.


So can someone clarify what the Gelug position is on Setrap? Is he deemed a worldly protector or not? Is he considered an object of refuge or not?

[Josef]

It seems we know the positions of the following schools regarding Setrap (please correct me if I'm wrong):

Nyingma: Worldly Protector
Sakya: Worldly Protector
Kagyu: Worldly Protector

And none believe in taking refuge in a worldly protector.


So can someone clarify what the Gelug position is on Setrap? Is he deemed a worldly protector or not? Is he considered an object of refuge or not?

Setrap is a tsen, a worldly/samaya bound guardian.
As far as I know this is the normal understanding among all lineages. I never got the impression from any of my Gelugpa lama's that they considered him to be anything else.

[Mr. G]

Scholar Jeff Watt has Setrap listed as a Worldly Protector:

http://www.himalayanart.org/image.cfm/845.html

[Blue Garuda]

Does the existence of an oracle also denote a Worldy Protector?

[Mr. G]

What oracle are we referring to Yeshe?

What is your take on the Nechung Oracle for example.

[Heruka]

most oracles occur in small villages, hamlets etc, often a local support for a mountain/river/forest worldly spirit is made, local sang, serkim offerings for good harvest, weather, wealth and health etc, clearing of obstacles and danger would be made. the local shaman/woman would have contact with that local guardian, and offerings would be made in mindfulness of the villages and spirits needs.

[Blue Garuda]

What oracle are we referring to Yeshe?

What is your take on the Nechung Oracle for example.

I was referring to advice I once received that only Worldly Protectors had oracles. Enlightened beings would not have one. I'm not sure if this is correct, hence the question.

As for Nechung, I'm not sure if the advice given is open to interpretation and therefore often 'right', or if it is highly specific. I follow HHDL on such matters in that he believes Nechung is helpful, based on his experience, so makes use of this oracle.

I have received divination myself, which was highly specific and very very accurate, so I work on the same basis of belief.

I have also taken part in rituals which some may regard as Shamanism, for example the clearance of a house of harmful spirits (where Christian exorcists had failed). Yet this was mainstream Gelugpa using a ritual translated from the Sanskrit into Tibetan by Je Tsongkhapa, based largely upon Compassion.

I understand that some may feel that certain aspects of practice are more to do with Tibetan culture than Buddhism, but I think we would find divination, trance and 'protectors' all over the world. For me, they enrich the practice and again, if it works and is in breach of no vows, I support it.

[Blue Garuda]

most oracles occur in small villages, hamlets etc, often a local support for a mountain/river/forest worldly spirit is made, local sang, serkim offerings for good harvest, weather, wealth and health etc, clearing of obstacles and danger would be made. the local shaman/woman would have contact with that local guardian, and offerings would be made in mindfulness of the villages and spirits needs.

My guru was a nomadic shepherd before entering Drepung and has experience of such things. I've also read of them in 'Himalayan Dialogue':
http://www.amazon.com/Himalayan-Dialogu ... 029911984X

At the moment I am a little confused about the work of the Ngakpa. I'm sure intention muct play a large part, as the Ngakpa will have a Buddhist motivation, whereas a local shaman may not.

Is it the case, in your experience, that shrines are kept in homes for propitiation of the protector, and the shaman is consulted for the purposes you outline and also for divination?

[Mr. G]

Oh, of course...I hope there's no misunderstanding on my part. I think if one's Lama/Guru advocates a certain practice to follow, and is conducive to one's practice, then by all means. My side rants are just that...rants.

[Blue Garuda]

Oh, of course...I hope there's no misunderstanding on my part. I think if one's Lama/Guru advocates a certain practice to follow, and is conducive to one's practice, then by all means. My side rants are just that...rants.

lol

I wasn't reacting to anything you wrote really, just rambling on about my confusion on some of these things.

Establishing the autheniticity of this or that Protector or Oracle is something I leave well alone and stick with what my guru advises - not only because he is my guru, but because so far his judgement has led to great faith on my part.

So for now, 6 Armed Mahakala for me!

[Heruka]

i think the problem is the traditionalists maintain that pehar is the main gyalpo in contact with nechung oracle, and that modernists wished to promote the shugden gyalpo to replace pehar. a sbyin sreg rite outside of potala by yogi from mindrolling was disturbed by setrap, allowing shugden to escape. Shugden would need an oracle to replace nechung and so on. The shugden gyalpo was supposed to compete for the bsod names grags pa against the Dalai Lamas power. It is really an internal scriptual and historical Gelukpa issue, between reting, Ganden, sera, drepung, nechung houses of power and influence.

[Ngawang Drolma]

I'm really sorry, folks, but this topic seems intent on wandering into areas that violate the ToS. I sincerely hope that the OP has received some helpful information, and I'm going to be closing the discussion. It seems to have run its course. I moved it into the Dharma-Free-For-All but that hasn't helped.

Thanks all for your participation and again, I hope it's been of help.

Best,
Laura

[Malcolm]

Could you explain the root of the Shugden controversy? I have never understood it.

It's complicated, but it ultimately emerged out of Mongolian Gelug anxiety about the growth of Nyingma practitioners in that region. Shugden is very strong in Mongolia. It is stronger there than in any other country.

M

[dakini_boi]

Could you explain the root of the Shugden controversy? I have never understood it.

It's complicated, but it ultimately emerged out of Mongolian Gelug anxiety about the growth of Nyingma practitioners in that region. Shugden is very strong in Mongolia. It is stronger there than in any other country.

M

So Shugden's main original function was to stop the spread of Dzogchen? And that is one of the reasons he is considered by HHDL to be a harmful worldly force?

[Blue Garuda]

Could you explain the root of the Shugden controversy? I have never understood it.

It's complicated, but it ultimately emerged out of Mongolian Gelug anxiety about the growth of Nyingma practitioners in that region. Shugden is very strong in Mongolia. It is stronger there than in any other country.

M

So Shugden's main original function was to stop the spread of Dzogchen? And that is one of the reasons he is considered by HHDL to be a harmful worldly force?

I'll PM you a story.

[Malcolm]

Could you explain the root of the Shugden controversy? I have never understood it.

It's complicated, but it ultimately emerged out of Mongolian Gelug anxiety about the growth of Nyingma practitioners in that region. Shugden is very strong in Mongolia. It is stronger there than in any other country.

M

So Shugden's main original function was to stop the spread of Dzogchen? And that is one of the reasons he is considered by HHDL to be a harmful worldly force?

Not Dzogchen, Nyingmapas. Of course Pabhongkha accepted the sectarian polemics against Dzogchen and the terma tradition but this is way off the point. We should stop here.