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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:40 am 
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Luke wrote:
Ven. Eijo always spoke as if Shingon has no connections with Shugendo whatsoever, so I find it interesting to learn that there actually are some.
Perhaps Ven. Eijo can clarify the relationship between Shingon and Shugendo the next time he comes around here.


Shingon and Shugendo are completely different things.

But its not that they have no connection.

The connection is that Shugendo has borrowed superficially from Shingon and esoteric Tendai. Those borrowings are mainly in the form of practices, and do not extend to doctrine.

Such limited borrowings do not make Shugendo and Shingon strongly connected, or make Shugendo a part of Shingon (I'll ask Jikan to speak for Tendai, if he will).

Historically Shugendo was required to identify with either Shingon or Tendai, but that does not mean that Shingon is in some part Shugendo, or includes it.

In some places Shingon temples also do maintain Shugendo practices, but they are treated entirely separately. Often they are treated as practices not suited for priests, but for laypeople.

(Note that some Japanese Buddhist temples including Shingon temples also have some Shinto practices, also treated separately.)

Also note that while Shugendo has borrowed some things from Shingon and Tendai, most of what it has are original or unique practices and teachings that cannot be found in traditional Shingon (with someone else please speaking for Tendai). Kuji-in is one of those.

Now a question for you or anyone who could care to answer. Why is there so much recurring interest in whether "ninja" practices, the kuji-in, and/or Shugendo are or should be a part of Shingon (or Tendai)?

Of all the questions that could be asked and topics that could be discussed regarding Shingon, this single issue is close to being the only one people seem to be interested in, much to my regret.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:59 pm 
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I'd be more than happy to discuss Shingon philosophy of which I know little. Is it mainly based on the Avatamsaka or Yogacara? The little material available in English is about Myoe.
gassho
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:08 pm 
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Thank you for giving yet another great and thorough answer, Ven. Eijo. :namaste:

eijo wrote:
Now a question for you or anyone who could care to answer. Why is there so much recurring interest in whether "ninja" practices, the kuji-in, and/or Shugendo are or should be a part of Shingon (or Tendai)?

I can understand your frustration, Ven. Eijo. I will try to explain.

I guess it just stimulates the "DaVinci Code" part of the brain in a lot of people. The only thing more alluring than two ancient mysterious things is uncovering some hidden connection between the two! ...And add to that many boyhood fantasies involving ninjas and you have a perfect storm! hehe

eijo wrote:
Of all the questions that could be asked and topics that could be discussed regarding Shingon, this single issue is close to being the only one people seem to be interested in, much to my regret.

I think if there were more texts about Shingon in English available for free online, this would lead to people being able to ask much more intelligent questions about it.

Another aspect of Shingon which my mystery-loving would find interesting is the details of Kukai's travels in China. I would find it very interesting to read about the details of his trip to China, his experiences, and what he learned there.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:35 am 
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Luke wrote:
I think if there were more texts about Shingon in English available for free online, this would lead to people being able to ask much more intelligent questions about it.


There is quite a large body of reliable material available in English now, much of it online in the form of academic articles.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:10 am 
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Jikan wrote:
Seishin wrote:
I believe there are indeed Tendai Shugendo sects. Shugendo was forced to belong to either Shingon or Tendai temples. However, I haven't got great knowledge of such matters.

EDIT- But I would add, becoming a Tendai or Shingon priest doesn't mean you will learn Shugendo.


There are Shugendo temples that have an affiliation with Tendai hierarchy, or that identify in one way or another with Tendai-shu. There are Tendai temples and practices that have a Shugendo flavor to them, some stronger than others.


Yamabushi schools/masters usually are affiliated with either Tendai, Shingon, or Shinto etc. Though you'll commonly hear it simply broken up into "Buddhist" and "Shinto" schools.

Also to the OP, if anything the Yamabushi most likely taught the Kuji-In to Ninjas rather than non-fighting Monks. I've heard that Ninjutsu may be connected aswell to the tengu summo art of the Yamabushi.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:30 pm 
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BaconMij wrote:
Yamabushi schools/masters usually are affiliated with either Tendai, Shingon, or Shinto etc. Though you'll commonly hear it simply broken up into "Buddhist" and "Shinto" schools.

Also to the OP, if anything the Yamabushi most likely taught the Kuji-In to Ninjas rather than non-fighting Monks. I've heard that Ninjutsu may be connected aswell to the tengu summo art of the Yamabushi.


Hello BaconMij,

You seem to miss the important post regarding Shingon and Shugendo and Kuji-in. I will quote from it here

Quote:
"Shingon and Shugendo are completely different things...Shugendo has borrowed superficially from Shingon and esoteric Tendai. Those borrowings are mainly in the form of practices, and do not extend to doctrine...Such limited borrowings do not make Shugendo and Shingon strongly connected, or make Shugendo a part of Shingon. Historically Shugendo was required to identify with either Shingon or Tendai, but that does not mean that Shingon is in some part Shugendo, or includes it.

...most of what [Shugendo] has are original or unique practices and teachings that cannot be found in traditional Shingon (with someone else please speaking for Tendai). Kuji-in is one of those."


In Summary, Ninja and Kuji really has no purpose to be in Shingon forum. It would be great if there were Shugendo group on this forum for these posts.

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