New Kadampa Tradition

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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby Heruka » Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:42 pm

tamdrin wrote:According to Tsem Tulku Setrap is a Buddha and can be taken refuge in.


this is not correct, worldly protectors are not proper refuge.
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby Heruka » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:07 pm

this kind of irks me actually, one cannot simply approach dharma protectors in ordinary sutra form or way, one has to first recieved tantric empowerment, then tantric transform and approach first, and remind the oath bound worldly protectors of their promises, otherwise its like a dog trying to communicate with a cat, there is going to be trouble.
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby tamdrin » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:15 pm

I usually just use tara for everything. Anyway I think one would have to be at a pretty high level to actually contact the protectors. There is a lot of stuff about Setrap on the net from Tsem tulku.
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby Blue Garuda » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:36 pm

This thread is finely balanced as the subject of certain protectors is to be avoided, due to potential disruption to the forum.

I echo the advice above.

If you need a Protector then your guru will inform you and transmit what is necessary for practice.

If your guru has not mentioned Protector practice then it is perfectly OK to ask if you should take up the practice, and if so which one is most appropriate.
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby plwk » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:55 am

My own views...from what I have read, seen and experienced...

It's not according to Tsem Tulku Rinpoche, he merely passed on what his lineage practice and masters like the late old master H.H Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche in his work, 'Music Delighting The Ocean of Protectors' has taught on Setrap as an emanation of Amitabha Buddha and Tsem Tulku Rinpoche also mentioned that the 5th Dalai Lama composed a liturgical piece to Setrap here. I have also learned from here that Setrap has 3 aspects: peaceful, increase and wrathful and the last quality, being the most popular form and have not seen the first 2.

Here's a discussion site for your reading... here. As what I have read and heard, the Dharmapala Setrap practice is a support practice to aid one's Dharma journey and not the be-end or main practice for Gelugpas. Their main practice is based on Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings and going onward into higher tantra practices like that of Heruka and Vajrayogini, of which Tsem Tulku Rinpoche promotes the latter with a kind of openness unheard of.

There's a lot of good & informative links on who Setrap is (depending on which Tibetan Buddhist lineage and guru one belongs to) and in the case before us, this Rinpoche who is a Gelugpa has been mentioned and perhaps, if you are seeking one Gelugpa view, it's best to stick to how Gelugpas teach and practice on Setrap (if that is what you're interested in), study and investigate with them to find out more in depth, not because other views are wrong but rather to avoid confusion and encourage stability at our level, it takes a certain level of maturity and realization to see all angles without having to disparage others with popular sentiments, instead of relying on sources that are 'ambiguous' kinda like my own mom who has her own skewed opinions on the Catholics (mainly influenced and stemming from my uncle, her own younger brother who is insanely hostile to Catholics) and even when a copy of the 'Catechism of the Catholic Church' was brought before her, she would still be adamant on her old views rather than clarify the misguided positions and that is not even asking her to believe what Catholics practice and believe, being a Protestant that she is, merely to supply her the correct and official view of what others practice and believe....

What Yeshe has said :thumbsup:
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby Heruka » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:10 am

plwk wrote: that Setrap has 3 aspects: peaceful, increase and wrathful and the last quality, being the most popular form and have not seen the first 2.



with respect,

a cat also has this nature of energy, should i take refuge in it also because it does?
im not being glib but do you know what your saying, or just like platos cave, parroting what you see?

what makes this worldly horse riding setrap a buddha?

careful
Last edited by Heruka on Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby Heruka » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:15 am

heres a mods words of advice from the forum

"Setrap's prayers can be done without an initation, there's actually a short, medium length and full length puja that you can do.

sorry this came a bit late :p but its never too late to do Setrap's prayers. For now you could do the mantra, am not sure if the puja is available online or that you need to purchase its prayer book..
"



this is chinese way of understanding. $$$
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby spiritnoname » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:03 pm

OMG

You know,.. why don't we put up for discussion if Vajrayogini is a Buddha?

Some of the topics,.. geesh,.. AS IF you should be asking a anonymous online forum for such particular spiritual guidance. Why not ask some stumble drunk strangers to drive you home while you're at it.

My opinion, Setrap is worth practicing if you have the aspiration to enlightenment.
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby tamdrin » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:51 pm

spirit you seem to have an opinoin about everything. Anyway I asked here because I figured it would be a good place to see different peoples ideas about it while I won't necessarily take anyones opinion but my own feeling in the end. It's not really the same thing as asking if Vajrayogini is a buddha because all schools consider her a valid meditational deity. The thing with Setrap is Kagyu and Nyingma consider Setrap to be a worldly spirit that was tamed by Guru Rinpoche. Gelukpa and Sakya consider setrap to be an emanation of Amitabha Buddha. The same with Tsuir Marpo. Kagyu's and Nyingma's consider him to be an enlightened emanation of Avalokisvara. Gelukpas and Sakyas more like a worldy spirit... So you see there is often a difference of opinion and it is good to see different views some times.
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby Mr. G » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:44 pm

Just a minor correction: Tsi'u Marpo and Dorje Setrap are Nyingma in origin and are considered worldy protectors in Sakya. Setrap is not practiced in the Sakya lineage.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby Josef » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:14 pm

spiritnoname wrote:OMG

You know,.. why don't we put up for discussion if Vajrayogini is a Buddha?

Some of the topics,.. geesh,.. AS IF you should be asking a anonymous online forum for such particular spiritual guidance. Why not ask some stumble drunk strangers to drive you home while you're at it.

My opinion, Setrap is worth practicing if you have the aspiration to enlightenment.

Its a completely relevant and reasonable discussion topic.
People are here to share information. Criticizing them for doing so is not in the spirit of generosity.
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby kirtu » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:38 pm

plwk wrote: As what I have read and heard, the Dharmapala ... practice is a support practice to aid one's Dharma journey and not the be-end or main practice ...


All Dharma Protector practices are to aid in one's Dharma journey and should not be taken as main practices (and I'm fully aware of what some would say to that).

Personally I would not do any protector practice unless my lama had said to do so. For one thing, unlike other Dharma practices, protector practices are generally deeply rooted in Tibetan culture and can be too easily misunderstood.

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Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby Josef » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:44 pm

kirtu wrote:
plwk wrote: As what I have read and heard, the Dharmapala ... practice is a support practice to aid one's Dharma journey and not the be-end or main practice ...


All Dharma Protector practices are to aid in one's Dharma journey and should not be taken as main practices (and I'm fully aware of what some would say to that).

Personally I would not do any protector practice unless my lama had said to do so. For one thing, unlike other Dharma practices, protector practices are generally deeply rooted in Tibetan culture and can be too easily misunderstood.

Kirt

I agree with Kirt 100% on this.
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:40 pm

Hi all,

We can now return to the OP, please feel free to discuss the legitimacy and safety of this protector practice.

Kind wishes,
Laura
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby dzoki » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:53 pm

tamdrin wrote:Kagyu's and Nyingma's consider him to be an enlightened emanation of Avalokisvara. Gelukpas and Sakyas more like a worldy spirit... So you see there is often a difference of opinion and it is good to see different views some times.


Not true, both Kagyus and Nyingmapas consider Tsu'i Marpo to be a worldly spirit as well, in fact his history is that he was a samaya breaker and due to that was reborn as a mountain spirit, later he was bound by Guru Padmasambhava to guard termas. This is attested in namthar of Tsa Sum Lingpa.

Worldly samaya bound protectors are a bit difficult to deal with, even Dorje Legpa who was tamed by Shakyamuni himself and later also by Guru Padmasambhava is said to have caused some trouble in Tibet later on and had to be reminded of his samaya.

I think it is better to rely on englihtened protectors such as Mahakala or Ekajati for the purpose of Dharma and for the other purposes - Tara is always here to help.
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby Mr. G » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:56 pm

dzoki wrote:
I think it is better to rely on englihtened protectors such as Mahakala or Ekajati for the purpose of Dharma and for the other purposes - Tara is always here to help.


I agree dzoki. Some people get hung up on protector practices. Why not rely on enlightened protectors to be safe? And one cannot go wrong with Green Tara...many people underestimate that practice.

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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby ngodrup » Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:29 am

mr. gordo wrote:
dzoki wrote:
I think it is better to rely on englihtened protectors such as Mahakala or Ekajati for the purpose of Dharma and for the other purposes - Tara is always here to help.


I agree dzoki. Some people get hung up on protector practices. Why not rely on enlightened protectors to be safe? And one cannot go wrong with Green Tara...many people underestimate that practice.

:namaste:


Indeed. One cannot go wrong with Mahakala, Palden Lhamo, both of whom can be seen as yidams.
Yamantaka can be seen as a protector or Yidam; Seng Dongma too, a Dakini or Dharmapala.
Go with those that are widely honored.
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby Tilopa » Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:38 am

mr. gordo wrote: I agree dzoki. Some people get hung up on protector practices. Why not rely on enlightened protectors to be safe? And one cannot go wrong with Green Tara...many people underestimate that practice.


Totally agree. The strong emphasis on protector practice seems to me to be a cultural influence from the pre Buddhist Bon tradition. I once heard HHDL say that for most people it's enough to rely on Tara. Also sometimes people forget that one of the main benefits of taking refuge in the 3 jewels is protection from adverse circumstances, spirits and other negative forces.
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby plwk » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:58 am

Personally I would not do any protector practice unless my lama had said to do so.

Agreed totally... but what if a Lama (as in the case of the one that the OP mentioned) opens up the practice for anyone to join in? I have asked their organisation, Kechara, before in one of their Sunday Dharma talk a few months back on this Protector if non-Buddhists and non-Vajrayana Buddhists can participate in the liturgy and the answer was an affirmative, provided with the right motivation and understanding of the practice, from their speaker who is one the Tsem Tulku Rinpoche's senior liaison. So it wasn't something that was done without permission or whatnot but after consideration and investigation that my participation was forthcoming. Initially, I sat in the few puja sessions as an observer.
For one thing, unlike other Dharma practices, protector practices are generally deeply rooted in Tibetan culture and can be too easily misunderstood.

That was what I had initially thought so too but what I had read from the sources on Setrap, based on Tsem Tulku Rinpoche's teachings, that this Protector traces back to Bodhgaya, India where he made his first vow to Sakyamuni Buddha and his second vow to Padmasambhava to be a Dharma Protector and hence in Setrap's iconography, one can find Guru Rinpoche's shoe on his crown and finally was introduced to Tibet by Ngok Lotsawa Loden Sherab, a great translator, as a Dharma Protector who had aided him in his journey from India to Tibet and in Tibet on his Dharma missions.
There are lots of links on Setrap linked to Tsem Tulku Rinpoche's teachings, this one caught my interest on the attitude towards Setrap here
Why not rely on enlightened protectors to be safe?

True and agreed.
And perhaps, if it's not too much to say that some healthy form of respect should be forthcoming towards respective lineage views on what each one regards as a worthy Dharma Protector, enlightened or not... after all, none of us are lineage masters and still treading on the Way, to an extent of relying on some part of our study and practice on what is imparted from past and present Good Knowing Advisors in their kindness and compassion for our sake...
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Re: Setrap, Safe?

Postby Mr. G » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:36 pm

Why not rely on enlightened protectors to be safe?
True and agreed.

And perhaps, if it's not too much to say that some healthy form of respect should be forthcoming towards respective lineage views on what each one regards as a worthy Dharma Protector, enlightened or not


I don't see an unhealthy form of respect mentioned in this thread.

plwk wrote:There are lots of links on Setrap linked to Tsem Tulku Rinpoche's teachings, this one caught my interest on the attitude towards Setrap here



And the first minute of that video is one of the side issues I have involving protector practices. The practitioner was doing 100 malas a day of protector practice. Imagine how much more could be accomplished doing 100 malas a day of one's Yidam instead. Spiritual materialism is something no one wants to fall into.
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