Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body[?]

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 21074
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:49 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
tatpurusa wrote:by the way, does anyone know how he does this?

He doesn't, his disciples do.

Everyone loves a Lama.



What a bunch of idiots.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 7921
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby DGA » Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:54 pm

I'm closing this thread temporarily for cleanup and cooldown.
Is your president elect a fascist? Find out now... Play Brownshirt Bingo!
https://www.scribd.com/document/3312914 ... nistration

User avatar
Adamantine
Former staff member
Posts: 3520
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Location: Space is the Place

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Adamantine » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:17 pm

This is just a friendly reminder of a crucial rule from our TOS:

Be polite. Rudeness in any form will not be tolerated. Any member who is intentionally unpleasant will initially be suspended to give the moderating team time to discuss if there is to be further action.



Please try to be as kind, and gentle as possible in your written speech —as most of you must know: written words online can often appear more harsh than intended because of a lack of voice tone, facial expression, etc. This refers to speaking in generalities and specificities. Some people are more sensitive than others, and it's best to accommodate everyone to keep a harmonious forum!
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

T. Chokyi
Posts: 510
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 11:19 am

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby T. Chokyi » Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:42 am

tatpurusa wrote:
Yeah, that's what I think too. I would just like to know if there is someone more familiar with this lama and his organisation.
In one of these videos he calls Penor Rinpoche his root guru.


He's a LAAAMaaa...for real... The Late HH Penor Rinpoche authorized him to teach, and told his fully ordained monks and nuns that he can teach them because he has less faults then they do... something like that... along those lines... not that he's a TRUUUULKUUUU.

:rolleye:

P.S. He's really got the largest Palyul Sangha in Europe, builds hospitals, publishs prayers, gives up his mortgage payment to pay someone elses mortgage ($120,000 to Palyul in Maryland when they needed it)... that there Lama Dondrup, yep he'll give you a chap stick if you tell him you have chapped lips too.

:cheers:

User avatar
Sönam
Posts: 1999
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow bod

Postby Sönam » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:25 am

just a food for thoughts ... sometime rudeness is a premise to harmony. Who can really pretends to know the consequences ?

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

WeiHan
Posts: 324
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:50 pm

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body[?]

Postby WeiHan » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:49 pm

[Mod note: there is a gap of more than two years between this post and the previous one. If you quote someone who is no longer participating, don't expect an answer.}
So far, there isn't any scientific evidence for rainbow body. I am also not sure how should scientific study be conducted in this case of rainbow body. However, what we have are accounts and in recent years, photos of cases of rainbow bodies manifestation.

Talking about miracle, I think the most properly and scientifically documented will be phenomena of rebirth. It is utterly miraculous, at similar level as rainbow body, that an injury in the subject in previous life can translate to a birth mark in the exact body location in the successive life. for reader benefit, I post the link for a most recent example.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/681034-3-year-old-remembers-past-life-identifies-murderer-and-location-of-body/

I think there is a relatively better chance to scientifically study sariras relics than rainbow body. Some of these relics are known to grow and multiply. So maybe, proper laboratory controlled experiments can be conducted to verify.

weenid
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 3:33 pm

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body[?]

Postby weenid » Sun May 22, 2016 3:59 pm

The premise behind this thread of "scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body" needs to be questioned.

If metaphysical phenomena like rainbow bodies need science to validate it, it is just mere scientific materialism. That will mean we have already first assumed the primacy of science over metaphysical phenomenon, that everything should and can be examined by peer reviewed data and repeatable trials, if not they cannot be real or true.

Khenpo Sodargye explained abou the defects of science and he briefly touched on the rainbow body here :
http://www.khenposodargye.org/2016/02/c ... n-science/

"It is certain that the conclusions made by scientists are not always entirely correct. They only offer an explanation that is based on the selection of phenomena observed and limits of the means of observation. Beyond that, all that remains to scientists are assumptions, hypothesis, guesses, or ignorance. In our complicated world, science is unable to explain many kinds of weird phenomena that are the result of sentient beings’ karma. For example, there are eight common accomplishments in Buddhism: arrived at by means of meditation, Buddhists with enough yoga practice can attain realizations that can allow them to obtain supernatural powers such as the ability to walk on water, fly freely in the sky, and pass through rocks and mountains, etc. Since science has no explanation for these phenomena, all they can do is label them as metaphysical and therefore, unexplainable. This is particularly true in the case of the great accomplishments of the Tantrayana, supreme practitioners of which can dissolve their bodies into rainbow light and transport themselves to the pure lands, leaving nothing behind. Scientists may try to explain these things based on certain assumptions such as the fact that within the body are certain materials that are known to emit light, but they are not able, so far, to come up with proven research that supports their theories. Without making a thorough study of Buddhism, they simply will never be able to understand the full truth of these phenomena... ... "

"In the world of science, if the researcher is not experienced with the mechanism, function, and accuracy of the instruments that he or she uses to observe the outer world, the results will be inexact and inconsistent. Similarly, since all of science’s past and potential future achievements originate from the concept of “I” – “I” noticed some phenomenon; “I” am thinking; “I” designed some equipment; “I” reached some conclusion; “I” set up some theory…” it still leaves unanswered the question of “Who on earth am ‘I’”? Science fails us in not answering this question that is central to all others. It is obviously quite unreasonable to continually say that this entity called “I” has made so many scientific discoveries, yet no one knows the answer answer to, “Who is this ‘I’”. Once we recognize the importance of this question, we will see that all rules and theories discovered by science are tainted by its inability to answer it."

smcj
Posts: 4655
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body[?]

Postby smcj » Sun May 22, 2016 6:04 pm

I took the five precepts from him, including the vow to not drink. This was important for me, because I was in the habit of getting dangerously intoxicated on a regular basis, and pretty drunk every day otherwise, and had not been able to find an effective way to stop. Immediately after that (taking precepts), I completely lost any and all desire to drink. Even when I was given some alcohol since then, the taste was not something I craved. Naturally, one could argue that this is all my own doing and there is no way to dispute it. Either way, the effect is miraculous even if the cause isn't.

This the only type of miracle that means anything, where someone grows in a spiritual direction. Anything else is just theatre to help us open our minds up from our normal rigid closed mindedness. The Madhyamaka tries to open our minds, but we remain convinced that the way our unawareness sees things is the way they actually are. .
--------
I've got some lama stories I've witnessed first hand, some of which were public. For instance at the Vajra Crown ceremony in L.A. in the late '70s there were a bunch of kids crying in the audience. There were a lot of them, more than a dozen spread throughout the audience. But the moment the Karmapa touched the Crown to his head they all simultaneously stopped. They didn't wind down or peter off, they all stopped that very instant.

I was there, so it not a rumour. It is first hand eyewitness testimony. It was at the Shrine Auditorium with probably 5,000 people there. I don't know why it is not better known.
My posts are for entertainment purposes only. Please don't take anything I say seriously unless you verify it with a real teacher first.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 21074
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body[?]

Postby Malcolm » Sun May 22, 2016 6:48 pm

weenid wrote:The premise behind this thread of "scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body" needs to be questioned.

If metaphysical phenomena like rainbow bodies need science to validate it, it is just mere scientific materialism. That will mean we have already first assumed the primacy of science over metaphysical phenomenon, that everything should and can be examined by peer reviewed data and repeatable trials, if not they cannot be real or true.

Khenpo Sodargye explained abou the defects of science and he briefly touched on the rainbow body here :
http://www.khenposodargye.org/2016/02/c ... n-science/



This factoid is easily addressed:

For instance, on May 19, 1980, in New England, USA, the sky suddenly became noticeably darker around 10 a.m. and these shrouded skies lasted the entire day.



He's confused it with Dark Day, which happened in 1780.

http://www.history.com/news/remembering ... s-dark-day

Salient facts:

It would take several decades—and several more smoke-induced “dark days”—before the forest fire theory won wide acceptance. It was finally confirmed in 2007, after researchers from the University of Missouri discovered signs of a massive, centuries-old wildfire in the Algonquin Highlands of southern Ontario. “Fire scars” in the rings of the affected trees allowed the team to date the blaze to the spring of 1780. After studying weather reports from the period, they concluded that low barometric pressure and heavy winds had most likely carried smoke into the upper atmosphere and over the Northeast, blotting out the sun. Evidence shows that a similar phenomenon also occurred in 1881, when the haze from fires in Ontario and Michigan reduced sunlight in New England by as much as 90 percent.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

weenid
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 3:33 pm

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body[?]

Postby weenid » Tue May 24, 2016 6:27 pm

To answer the question whether there's scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body, a good counter question that Khenpo Sodargye might pose is (in the first place) whether or not Buddhism needs validation from science since it is a science in its own right.

See the last para here :
http://www.mmg.mpg.de/online-media/blog ... t-thinker/

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 21074
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body[?]

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 24, 2016 7:02 pm

weenid wrote:To answer the question whether there's scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body, a good counter question that Khenpo Sodargye might pose is (in the first place) whether or not Buddhism needs validation from science since it is a science in its own right.


If by science you simply means an area of knowledge, then I can agree.

But if by science you mean it can stand along with physics, and so on, I have to disagree.

Why? Science in the latter sense depends upon empirical validation of the perceptions of many ordinary people over time under controlled experimental conditions, slowly piecing together this and that kind of knowledge. Buddhadharma on the other hand is entirely revelatory, and is based on faith in the perception of extraordinary people whose perceptions cannot be validated by ordinary people. The validation of those perceptions necessitates that one has oneself transformed into an extraordinary person whose knowledge does not depend on the empirical validation of the perceptions of many ordinary people over time under controlled experimental conditions.

First and foremost, rainbow body is the result of what happens when you eradicate for yourself the fundamental delusion that sustains samsaric appearances. Since the outer and inner five elements are already the five lights of pristine consciousness misperceived, when that misperception is utterly removed, where one once perceived the five elements in all their diversity, one now perceives nothing but a field of light.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

User avatar
Kaccāni
Posts: 1049
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:03 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body[?]

Postby Kaccāni » Wed May 25, 2016 5:24 pm

weenid wrote:The premise behind this thread of "scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body" needs to be questioned.

If metaphysical phenomena like rainbow bodies need science to validate it, it is just mere scientific materialism. That will mean we have already first assumed the primacy of science over metaphysical phenomenon, that everything should and can be examined by peer reviewed data and repeatable trials, if not they cannot be real or true.


Which definition of "metaphysics" are you using here and how do you connect it to what Buddha said?

Peace
Kc
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!

steve_bakr
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:03 am

Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body[?]

Postby steve_bakr » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:36 am

I highly doubt that this phenomenon has been subject to scientific observation. This is just me. I do not think that accounts of the Rainbow Body is what needs to be emphasized in the teaching of Dzogchen. I venture to say that it is not what is important. It might even serve to alienate some potential students. What we have is the presence of this primordial consciousness, this wonderfully clear seemingly self-originating self awareness, the miracle of miracles. This, in my view, is what needs to be emphasized.


Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: climb-up, yeshi nidup and 40 guests