Alaya consciousness - many questions.

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

alpha wrote: This alayavijnana is a concept which i still struggle with.
Is this a general basis where the traces are stored or is it individual , specific to every individual ?
I'm a lightweight compared to some others around here, but I believe it is specific to the individual. It's not like an akashic record.
Is this a problem for a dzogchenpa?
I don't know. Just be aware that in this thread the term is currently being debated in the specific context of how Chandrakirti used it, which is completely different (according to Malcolm) than how it is used in the context of Yogacara philosophy, which is its normal usage. So this thread may not be the best place to try to come to an understanding of it.

Maybe a new thread?
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Grigoris
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Post by Grigoris »

alpha wrote:This alayavijnana is a concept which i still struggle with.
Is this a general basis where the traces are stored or is it individual , specific to every individual ?
As far as I know it is specific to every individual. I have yet to come across the idea of a collective consciousness in Buddhism.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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conebeckham
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Post by conebeckham »

As far as my reading and study are concerned, on the relative level it is specific to every individual...but again, it's not truly existent in the first place, but is within the realm of conditioned phenomema. Just as a "specific individual" is. However, the underlying, essential, "pure" element is presented by many as the Tathagatagarbha, or, when fully purified, the Dharmakaya. This is, of course, hotly disputed by those who feel the Tathatgatagarbha doctrine is expedient, even by those who posit a conventional alayavijnana.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Malcolm
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Post by Malcolm »

conebeckham wrote:As far as my reading and study are concerned, on the relative level it is specific to every individual...but again, it's not truly existent in the first place, but is within the realm of conditioned phenomema. Just as a "specific individual" is. However, the underlying, essential, "pure" element is presented by many as the Tathagatagarbha, or, when fully purified, the Dharmakaya. This is, of course, hotly disputed by those who feel the Tathatgatagarbha doctrine is expedient, even by those who posit a conventional alayavijnana.
Asanga argues somewhere that the bhavanga doctrine in the Nikaya schools and the ālayavijñāna have the same meaning. This makes ālayavijñāna personal.
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Grigoris
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:As far as my reading and study are concerned, on the relative level it is specific to every individual...but again, it's not truly existent in the first place, but is within the realm of conditioned phenomema. Just as a "specific individual" is. However, the underlying, essential, "pure" element is presented by many as the Tathagatagarbha, or, when fully purified, the Dharmakaya. This is, of course, hotly disputed by those who feel the Tathatgatagarbha doctrine is expedient, even by those who posit a conventional alayavijnana.
Asanga argues somewhere that the bhavanga doctrine in the Nikaya schools and the ālayavijñāna have the same meaning. This makes ālayavijñāna personal.
That's the feeling I got from my study of Abhidha(r/mm)a.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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reddust
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

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Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

reddust wrote: Just do a search on the text I linked to for Bhavanga citta and Alaya vijnana, also do a search on Dharma Wheel
I Googled alaya vijnana and got a hit for a book by Tsongkhapa on the Yogacara system. Who knew? Anyway here's part of the blurb for it. It's called "Ocean of Eloquence".

This is probably the best introduction to the distinctive eight consciousness systems of Yogacara. It also makes understandable the different meanings of the profound alaya-vijnana (the storehouse consciousness, or basis of all) that is the pivotal eighth consciousness in their system.

For those interested in meditation, the author's introduction explains how earlier Tibetan meditation (the method of allowing mind to look into its own pure nature) uses the eight-consciousness system.

The book is remarkable in that it addresses the problem of how a person trapped within the confines of a limited and deluded personality can transcend that state and attain liberation. By his inquiry into the process of transformation, Tsong kha pa makes profound comments which will interest those who ask whether enlightenment is a gradual process or a sudden breakthrough
.(formatting mine)

$53. I'm not doing it. I've got enough Dharma books unread on my shelf.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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reddust
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Post by reddust »

smcj wrote:
The book is remarkable in that it addresses the problem of how a person trapped within the confines of a limited and deluded personality can transcend that state and attain liberation. By his inquiry into the process of transformation, Tsong kha pa makes profound comments which will interest those who ask whether enlightenment is a gradual process or a sudden breakthrough.(formatting mine)

$53. I'm not doing it. I've got enough Dharma books unread on my shelf.
We had huge threads regarding this topic on E-sangha, lots of heated arguments because Theravada and Mahayana were not separated. I loved it!!! I am going through the book I am reading right now "A Study of Svantantrika " looking for references on this topic. I must confess I am still very curious about these mind states because of my meditation experiences with vipassana going down into the what is commonly referred to as the unconscious mind with pin pointed totally focused pure awareness and blowing those latent seeds to smithereens. I could use the pali words in my last sentence but I really suck at it so I am not going to do it :guns:

I need to read the books I have as well :reading:
Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

reddust wrote:
smcj wrote:
The book is remarkable in that it addresses the problem of how a person trapped within the confines of a limited and deluded personality can transcend that state and attain liberation. By his inquiry into the process of transformation, Tsong kha pa makes profound comments which will interest those who ask whether enlightenment is a gradual process or a sudden breakthrough.(formatting mine)

$53. I'm not doing it. I've got enough Dharma books unread on my shelf.
We had huge threads regarding this topic on E-sangha, lots of heated arguments because Theravada and Mahayana were not separated. I loved it!!! I am going through the book I am reading right now "A Study of Svantantrika " looking for references on this topic. I must confess I am still very curious about these mind states because of my meditation experiences with vipassana going down into the what is commonly referred to as the unconscious mind with pin pointed totally focused pure awareness and blowing those latent seeds to smithereens. I could use the pali words in my last sentence but I really suck at it so I am not going to do it :guns:

I need to read the books I have as well :reading:
I thought that Tsongkhapa had done nothing but criticize Yogacara. I had no idea he had written anything on it other than critique.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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reddust
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Post by reddust »

smcj wrote: I thought that Tsongkhapa had done nothing but criticize Yogacara. I had no idea he had written anything on it other than critique.
I am a closet Yogacaraian :spy: I bet Tsongkhapa was too. But seriously, I bet a lot of data has been forgotten, lost in translation.... (runs and hides from the Dharma police) hahaha (Edit-I am teasing, seriously, I don't want to go to Dharma school jail)
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LastLegend
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Post by LastLegend »

reddust wrote:
smcj wrote: I thought that Tsongkhapa had done nothing but criticize Yogacara. I had no idea he had written anything on it other than critique.
I am a closet Yogacaraian :spy: I bet Tsongkhapa was too. But seriously, I bet a lot of data has been forgotten, lost in translation.... (runs and hides from the Dharma police) hahaha (Edit-I am teasing, seriously, I don't want to go to Dharma school jail)
:lol:
It’s eye blinking.
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reddust
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Post by reddust »

LastLegend wrote:
reddust wrote:
smcj wrote: I thought that Tsongkhapa had done nothing but criticize Yogacara. I had no idea he had written anything on it other than critique.
I am a closet Yogacaraian :spy: I bet Tsongkhapa was too. But seriously, I bet a lot of data has been forgotten, lost in translation.... (runs and hides from the Dharma police) hahaha (Edit-I am teasing, seriously, I don't want to go to Dharma school jail)
:lol:
Goodnight Brother, it is way past my bedtime. :hug: :hi:
Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Post by Punya »

conebeckham wrote:As far as my reading and study are concerned, on the relative level it is specific to every individual...but again, it's not truly existent in the first place, but is within the realm of conditioned phenomema. Just as a "specific individual" is.
This is also my understanding but what's the explanation for it being specific to the individual?
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Malcolm
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Post by Malcolm »

smcj wrote: $53. I'm not doing it. I've got enough Dharma books unread on my shelf.
It's actually about 25 bucks.
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anjali
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Post by anjali »

reddust wrote:
smcj wrote: I thought that Tsongkhapa had done nothing but criticize Yogacara. I had no idea he had written anything on it other than critique.
I am a closet Yogacaraian :spy: I bet Tsongkhapa was too. But seriously, I bet a lot of data has been forgotten, lost in translation.... (runs and hides from the Dharma police) hahaha (Edit-I am teasing, seriously, I don't want to go to Dharma school jail)
According to the introduction of Ocean of Eloquence (parts can be read online at books.google.com), Sparham makes the claim that Tsongkapa's views on the alaya-vijnana evolved. I found this excerpt particularly interesting. The Question and Response are from the later Tsongkhapa:
[Question:] Even though a kun gzhi which is svabhava-siddha ('inherently real') is rejected, still one may accept one which, substantially different (Tib. ngo bo tha dad) to the set of six, is the illusion-like sarva-bijaka of all good and bad.

[Response:] Should one accept such a kun gzhi one would have to accept shapes and sounds, etc., which ripening from kun gzhi residual impressions, are mere appearances without objective content (Tib. don med). But in this [definitive] text [on Buddhist truth, i.e., the Guhyasamaja commentary] it says, “One gets the knowable through knowing: without a knowable there is no knowing. So why not assert the nonexistence of understanding and understood?”

Here, then, the ontological status of a knowable and knowing are equated. If one were not to exist the other would not either. This is no different to what we find in the Madhyamakavatara where it says the object-known (Tib, don) and knowing are not to be differentiated when it comes to their ontological status: both are equally ultimately nonexistent and equally conventionally existent. The Acarya does not accept there is a knowledge of something nonexternal. So he does not assert a kun gzhi which is substantially different to the sixth consciousness, mano-vijnana.
In essence, then, Tsong kha pa totally rejects a place for the alaya-vijnana because it gives awareness itself—what Tsong kha pa terms ‘knowing’ (Tib. shes byed)—undue weight relative to ordinary external appearances.
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