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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:08 am 
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LastLegend wrote:
smcj wrote:
I thought that he was expressing doubt about his innate enlightened mind--as in once his doubt is dispelled he becomes enlightened. :stirthepot:


I was confused about what I was trying to express. :rolling:


You know what Mama says, "When you are confused, keep your mouth shut" :D :D :D :heart:

Edit....this whole thread made me giggle like a little girl....I feel so bad about that, I had to confess. :namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:26 am 
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Maybe the best way to cure doubt is to laugh? :thinking:

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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:52 am 
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reddust wrote:
Maybe the best way to cure doubt is to laugh? :thinking:

I know for a fact Dharma is going to change here in the West because women are going to be included in Dharma environments. It is my belief that all those old texts are drier than dehydrated chalk because of the lack of proximity of women. :bow:

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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:34 am 
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Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
How to cure doubt ?

By having faith !

:alien:


http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/III/T ... _Faith.htm


I never even doubted lotus blossoms falling from the sky !


:heart:


:smile: :thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:46 am 
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:smile: If you experience it through study and meditation, you don't need much faith. Then faith comes from knowing.

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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:07 am 
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LastLegend wrote:
This doubt is special-one doubts one can't be a realized Buddha in this life time.

You picked up and idea from someone, and now you doubt it. Why did you pick it up in the first place? What for? Desire for bliss? Probably :smile: .
That is the schema of doubt. Somebody shows you a goal that is desirable, and the way to get it. Until you cannot get it, you doubt it. Buddhahood is desire free. Drop expectations, drop desires, and doubt will be cured. I know it may sound weird, because how can you realize Buddha through dropping desire to realize it? It can be explained, but not in one post. Now, I can give a quote from Longchenpa: "Sough-after truth is found by not seeking it."

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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:20 am 
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reddust wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
smcj wrote:
I thought that he was expressing doubt about his innate enlightened mind--as in once his doubt is dispelled he becomes enlightened. :stirthepot:


I was confused about what I was trying to express. :rolling:


You know what Mama says, "When you are confused, keep your mouth shut" :D :D :D :heart:

Edit....this whole thread made me giggle like a little girl....I feel so bad about that, I had to confess. :namaste:



*Bows and back away* :smile:

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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:21 am 
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oushi wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
This doubt is special-one doubts one can't be a realized Buddha in this life time.

You picked up and idea from someone, and now you doubt it. Why did you pick it up in the first place? What for? Desire for bliss? Probably :smile: .
That is the schema of doubt. Somebody shows you a goal that is desirable, and the way to get it. Until you cannot get it, you doubt it. Buddhahood is desire free. Drop expectations, drop desires, and doubt will be cured. I know it may sound weird, because how can you realize Buddha through dropping desire to realize it? It can be explained, but not in one post. Now, I can give a quote from Longchenpa: "Sough-after truth is found by not seeking it."


:bow: :bow: :bow:

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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:25 am 
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Ayu wrote:
:smile: If you experience it through study and meditation, you don't need much faith. Then faith comes from knowing.


Ideas about faith we don't need. I think that is the faith what you mean.
"Faith comes from knowing". Then faith in Nature - Awaken Master, remains necessary till Awakening. :smile:

"Absolute truth, arisen from itself, is realized through faith alone". Here Shechen Gyaltsap meaning faith in nature.

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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:00 pm 
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muni wrote:
Ayu wrote:
:smile: If you experience it through study and meditation, you don't need much faith. Then faith comes from knowing.


Ideas about faith we don't need. I think that is the faith what you mean.
"Faith comes from knowing". Then faith in Nature - Awaken Master, remains necessary till Awakening. :smile:

"Absolute truth, arisen from itself, is realized through faith alone". Here Shechen Gyaltsap meaning faith in nature.


*Bows again* :smile:

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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:20 pm 
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Quote:
I know it may sound weird, because how can you realize Buddha through dropping desire to realize it?………..Now, I can give a quote from Longchenpa: "Sought-after truth is found by not seeking it."

There is also the "gradualist" approach, where effort is made by sutra or tantra. Longchenpa is talking about the short-cut. Not everybody can find the short-cut, otherwise that would be the only path ever taught to anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:50 pm 
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smcj wrote:
Quote:
I know it may sound weird, because how can you realize Buddha through dropping desire to realize it?………..Now, I can give a quote from Longchenpa: "Sought-after truth is found by not seeking it."

There is also the "gradualist" approach, where effort is made by sutra or tantra. Longchenpa is talking about the short-cut. Not everybody can find the short-cut, otherwise that would be the only path ever taught to anyone.

Yes, indeed it looks like this. Beside the fact that this short-cut is hard to find, it seems to be available only to specific type of recipients. I, for example, feel deep affinity with this "sudden" approach. What is important, is the fact that this "superiority", in my eyes, in not achieved just by less time needed do succeed, but rather, the very nature of sudden techniques. They take the present moment, and create the mind shift now, or during next few hours.
There are those who drive joy from running Marathon race, but also those who drive it from a single acrobatic act.

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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:20 pm 
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Doubt is just another thought.
Stop being the thinker and the thinking becomes irrelevant.


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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:32 pm 
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that's absurd


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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:33 pm 
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oushi wrote:
... Drop expectations, drop desires, and doubt will be cured. I know it may sound weird, because how can you realize Buddha through dropping desire to realize it? It can be explained, but not in one post. Now, I can give a quote from Longchenpa: "Sough-after truth is found by not seeking it."


Rather stop being the desirer or the one who drops desires; and the desiring, searching etc. become self-liberated.


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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:03 pm 
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tatpurusa wrote:
oushi wrote:
... Drop expectations, drop desires, and doubt will be cured. I know it may sound weird, because how can you realize Buddha through dropping desire to realize it? It can be explained, but not in one post. Now, I can give a quote from Longchenpa: "Sough-after truth is found by not seeking it."


Rather stop being the desirer or the one who drops desires; and the desiring, searching etc. become self-liberated.

The problem is, that this dropping is the type of act that fuels desirer. Not even mentioning that your first method is contradicted by your second method (which is based on dropping stopping). ;)

This stopping is not a stopping at all, quite opposite, it stops the stopping. It's liberation from stopping. Doubt, Stress and Fear are the anchors which should be cut of, as they are the tools of this stopping, which blocs liberation.

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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:40 pm 
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Quote:
The problem is, that this dropping is the type of act that fuels desirer. Not even mentioning that your first method is contradicted by your second method (which is based on dropping stopping). ;)

This stopping is not a stopping at all, quite opposite, it stops the stopping. It's liberation from stopping. Doubt, Stress and Fear are the anchors which should be cut of, as they are the tools of this stopping, which blocs liberation.

Personally, I find this type of thinking quite painful. Thankfully, being a gradualist, I do not have to engage in it at all. YMMV.

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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:49 pm 
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smcj wrote:
Personally, I find this type of thinking quite painful.

Only when you have to explain it to someone else. On the experiential, emotional level it is quite simple and liberating. So, the only "pain" that arises is when you have to verbalize it. :D
smcj wrote:
Thankfully, being a gradualist, I do not have to engage in it at all. YMMV.

You are engaged in it, just in a different way.

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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:54 pm 
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Quote:
You are engaged in it, just in a different way.

Refuge, renunciation, bodhicitta, practice, dedication. Repeat.

Not easy per se, but straightforward.

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 Post subject: Re: How to cure doubt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:00 pm 
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oushi wrote:
tatpurusa wrote:
oushi wrote:
... Drop expectations, drop desires, and doubt will be cured. I know it may sound weird, because how can you realize Buddha through dropping desire to realize it? It can be explained, but not in one post. Now, I can give a quote from Longchenpa: "Sough-after truth is found by not seeking it."


Rather stop being the desirer or the one who drops desires; and the desiring, searching etc. become self-liberated.

The problem is, that this dropping is the type of act that fuels desirer. Not even mentioning that your first method is contradicted by your second method (which is based on dropping stopping). ;)


:crazy:

All I mean is that the point is not stopping any action, but a state where the identification with the trinity of doer/doing/done does not take place.
This identification is actually the meaning of avidya.
Self-liberation does not mean that subject/action/object ceases to exist, but that their constant arising and transforming is not capable of blocking or disturbing the nature of mind.
I don't quite understand where you see two methods in this.


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