Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby Individual » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:28 am

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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby heart » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:13 am

Individual wrote:
heart wrote:If you practice Dzogchen or Mahamudra then Guru yoga is the heart. However, Guru yoga have many forms and it is mainly an attitude to live by and not a particular practice. In order to practice Mahamudra or Dzogchen you do have to have some very essential instructions from a qualified master. Once you gained some experience in these instructions, Guru yoga arises by itself. The main point in Vajrayana is to find the Guru and it is not, contrary to what many people believe, an easy thing.

/magnus

Because he's probably off in a forest, cave, or secluded temple somewhere

All the easily available ones just want your time, attention, and money


Not like that at all. The problem isn't to find a qualified Guru, there are quite a few around. The problem is to be a qualified student. Then even if you are a qualified student and meet a qualified Guru their might not be a connection. This is what makes it difficult. It is very personal I would say.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby narraboth » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:30 pm

conebeckham wrote:but isn't Pure Vision quite related to Guru Yoga anyway?


I have read a Rinpoche (forgot who) said to do guruyoga you should receive four empowerments from a guru first.
(The idea is: the person-to-person empowerment is base empowerment, and the ones you receive in guruyoga is path empowerment)
In this case, only auttarayoga contains guruyoga, which excludes other three levels of Vajrayana.
We can say the devotion to guru is important for all Vajrayana practices, but 'guruyoga' is a special term. Devotion and praying to guru is part of it, not the whole. If you know some texts, you will find the common keypoint in the end of every guruyoga. Can't describe too much here.

well, but yes, four levels of tantric buddhism mark higher and higher level of pure vision, and guruyoga is a very powerful and very high method.
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby Luke » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:22 pm

Individual wrote:I don't know it. It's just a guess because no easily accessible Buddhist teacher who calls themselves a "guru" has ever impressed me, therefore logically I must conclude that, if there is some kind of amazing guru, he must be in the woods somewhere, meditating cynically because of his omnipotence.

First of all, I think you're reading too much into the word "guru." "Lama" is the Tibetan translation of the Sanskrit word "guru," so by definition, everyone who is calling himself a lama is also calling himself a guru.

You may be right that it is difficult to get regular teachings from many of the greatest lamas, but many people have been able to see them every few years, and those with very good karma have life circumstances which enable them to see them more often.

I was fortunate enough to attend the teachings of a great Drikung yogi last year who is now in another three-year retreat in India and is currently inaccesible to the public. So opportunities to meet very great Buddhist masters come and go. But the greatest Buddhist teachers are certainly much more accessible to the general public than they were 100 years ago!
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:58 pm

Individual wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
Because he's probably off in a forest, cave, or secluded temple somewhere

All the easily available ones just want your time, attention, and money


And you know this how?

I don't know it. It's just a guess because no easily accessible Buddhist teacher who calls themselves a "guru" has ever impressed me, therefore logically I must conclude that, if there is some kind of amazing guru, he must be in the woods somewhere, meditating cynically because of his omnipotence.


Good grief.
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby conebeckham » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:14 pm

Individual-
I'm waiting for your list.

Without specifics, any assertions you make are fruitless, if not damaging.
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby Luke » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:46 pm

narraboth wrote:well, but yes, four levels of tantric buddhism mark higher and higher level of pure vision, and guruyoga is a very powerful and very high method.

What is the proper definition of "pure vision"? I've seen a few different definitions on the net, and I'm not sure which is correct.

One definition is about seeing everything one's guru does as enlightened activity.

Another definition says that this is about seeing the whole world as your yidam's pure land, hearing all sounds as your yidam's mantra, and seeing all beings (including oneself) as the yidam.
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby Luke » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:54 pm

I've read that some people in the past attained enlightenment by just doing Ngondro.

Does this mean that they basically attained enlightenment by doing Guru Yoga?

Is it correct to think that Guru Yoga is the most powerful part of Ngondro?
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby narraboth » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:09 pm

Luke wrote:
narraboth wrote:well, but yes, four levels of tantric buddhism mark higher and higher level of pure vision, and guruyoga is a very powerful and very high method.

What is the proper definition of "pure vision"? I've seen a few different definitions on the net, and I'm not sure which is correct.

One definition is about seeing everything one's guru does as enlightened activity.

Another definition says that this is about seeing the whole world as your yidam's pure land, hearing all sounds as your yidam's mantra, and seeing all beings (including oneself) as the yidam.


Hi Luke,
what you mentioned are methods to acheive pure vision.
But pure vision is not something like to imagine things as what they are not. Otherwise it can't be superior than compassion and so on.
Pure vision is to realise the true face of everything.

For your another question, yes, guruyoga is thought to be the most important part of ngondro. However, for different individuals different part of ngondro might be more crutial. For some people Vajrasattva might be more important. Ngondro is to make you ready, or kind of ready; when you are 100% ready like a very ripen peach, just a touch can break your skin and juice will come out. That's why some people get enlightened when they were doing ngondro; it's not that there's no main part at all, it's that the main part happened in an instant.

Dzongsar Khyentse rinpoche told us in London earlier: devotion is the best path to realise emptiness, but devotion is also ignorance. It's a mind action, so in the end you still need to give it up.

It's possible to attain enlightenment through guruyoga, but guruyoga is not just crying, praying, singing.... that's not gonna to work. You need to do guruyoga properly.
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby Luke » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:19 pm

Individual wrote:I must conclude that, if there is some kind of amazing guru, he must be in the woods somewhere, meditating cynically because of his omnipotence.

Or sometimes they are just in prison.

H.E. Garchen Rinpoche spent 20 years in a Chinese prison. He saw more pain and suffering in his lifetime than most people see. Individual, I sense that some of your resentment stems from the assumption that all great lamas are isolated from the world in some idyllic place and have never suffered, but this is far from the truth. Many Tibetan masters have suffered greatly because of the Chinese invasion of Tibet. They understand suffering and they also understand its antidote.

During the time that Garchen Rinpoche was in prison, he was learning Dzogchen from his root guru and was inaccessible to the outside world. Today we are very fortunate that he teaches frequently all over the world because of his great compassion for all beings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garchen_Rinpoche

I have never met him, but I'm sure that anyone who meets him will feel something very profound. I strongly encourage you to attend one of his teachings, Individual. I would urge you to try to put your bitterness on hold until you've met more lamas.

Last edited by Luke on Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby Luke » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:22 pm

narraboth wrote:It's possible to attain enlightenment through guruyoga, but guruyoga is not just crying, praying, singing.... that's not gonna to work. You need to do guruyoga properly.

Yes, yes, I know. From what I understand, Guru Yoga is a very precise method like a sadhana.

Don't worry, I won't do it until I've received proper instructions from a guru.
:namaste:
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby heart » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:43 pm

Luke wrote:
narraboth wrote:It's possible to attain enlightenment through guruyoga, but guruyoga is not just crying, praying, singing.... that's not gonna to work. You need to do guruyoga properly.

Yes, yes, I know. From what I understand, Guru Yoga is a very precise method like a sadhana.

Don't worry, I won't do it until I've received proper instructions from a guru.
:namaste:


True Guru yoga depends on having a Guru but it is still possible to practice Guru yoga as an aspiration. The lineage prayer should be practiced as a Guru yoga. The seven line prayer to Guru Rinpoche is a complete Guru yoga. Many prayers you already know could be consider Guru yoga. You need a little devotion not any precise instructions.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby Luke » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:04 pm

heart wrote:True Guru yoga depends on having a Guru but it is still possible to practice Guru yoga as an aspiration. The lineage prayer should be practiced as a Guru yoga. The seven line prayer to Guru Rinpoche is a complete Guru yoga. Many prayers you already know could be consider Guru yoga. You need a little devotion not any precise instructions.

Who better to talk about the "heart of Vajrayana" than Heart himself? Lol.

When you say, "You need a little devotion," you simply mean feeling devotion towards the deities or teachers that one is thinking about during the prayer, right? You didn't necessarily mean devotion towards a living lama when you're practicing Guru Yoga as just an aspiration, right?
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby Dhondrub » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:10 pm

Luke wrote:
heart wrote:True Guru yoga depends on having a Guru but it is still possible to practice Guru yoga as an aspiration. The lineage prayer should be practiced as a Guru yoga. The seven line prayer to Guru Rinpoche is a complete Guru yoga. Many prayers you already know could be consider Guru yoga. You need a little devotion not any precise instructions.

Who better to talk about the "heart of Vajrayana" than Heart himself? Lol.

When you say, "You need a little devotion," you simply mean feeling devotion towards the deities or teachers that one is thinking about during the prayer, right? You didn't necessarily mean devotion towards a living lama when you're practicing Guru Yoga as just an aspiration, right?



In the Kagyu and Nyingma lineages at one point you need a living teacher.


Guru Yoga

by HE Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche.



This teaching is on the relationship between teacher and disciple, and how to relate to the practice that involves one's guru. His Eminence will begin with the ground for such a situation.

As many of you may know, in order to assimilate the teachings properly, to experience and thus to integrate the teachings into one's life, one must first have the proper conditions necessary to bring about such a situation. One of the first important points is that if one's attention is not upon the teachings, then one does not receive the teachings properly. In listening to the teachings, it is not enough that one has heard the words; one must hear and understand the meaning of what is communicated through the medium of words. Toward that, one must be mindful of the fact that one is receiving teachings, give one's full attention, and with a very clear and attentive mind, otherwise one is not going to hear and understand the teachings, no matter how many times one has the opportunity to hear them.

For instance, if a particular container into which you would like to pour water is turned upside down, no matter how many times you try to pour water into it, none of the water will get inside the container. This is the first important requirements for receiving the teachings.

The second possible shortcoming that could hinder one from receiving the teachings properly is a situation that is likened to a container that has a cracked bottom, or a hole.

One of the first important points is that if one's attention is not upon the teachings, then one does not receive the teaching properly.

This means that whatever is poured into the container will leak out. Although you have the chance of pouring, nothing is retained. It is not enough that one has heard the words of the teachings through the faculty or the consciousness of hearing; what one has heard must be properly remembered. This relates to what is traditionally emphasized as developing the wisdom of understanding, the wisdom of understanding, the wisdom of contemplation, so that one does not just forget right away. We often say that what we hear goes in one ear and out the other. Again this would not be characteristic of being a proper vessel. Retaining and remembering what you have heard is necessary.

The third important requirements for being a proper vessel for the Dharma is that one should not be a poisonous vessel. Such a vessel may have no cracks or leakages, yet nevertheless the vessel is poisonous. Whatever is poured into it is poisonous, of no use, and actually a cause for harm. One must have the proper motivation. One should not be receiving teachings and one should not be giving teachings with an unhealty motivation. Unhealthy motivation is receiving or giving the teaching while having neurotic and egocentric attitudes of all kinds.

The proper attitude to have while receiving and giving teachings is to know that the purpose of receiving the teachings is to benefit and to bring all beings to enlightenment. In the same way, the purpose of giving teachings is to benefit those receiving them, to relieve beings from the state of confusion and suffering. It is important to have this kind of proper motivation of working toward the benefit and enlightenment of all beings.

In order for one to be able to follow properly the path of the Dharma, the pure spiritual Dharmic journey, there must be some other important conditions present and the recognition of these.

As it is explained in the text the Jewel Ornament of Liberation by Gampopa, the cause of the experience of enlightenment (the complete awakening of the mind) is traditionally known as Buddhanature; this inherent potential for complete awakening is within all beings. It is extremely important to know this, and to have a sense of healthy faith or confidence in oneself. Buddhanature is inherent and pervades the minds of all being; in the same way, though it may not be particularly visible or obvious, butter pervades milk. We should have a sense of the resourcefulness about ourselves. We have to acknowledge that we are not asking for anything that is not our own basic wealth.

For the experience of complete awakened mind, three important conditions should be present:
(1) the vehicle of human birth,
(2) the cause of spiritual friends, and
(3) the method of instruction.
While the potential to experience awakened mind ultimately is inherent in all beings, even in the tiniest beings, only with the vehicle ofthe 'precious human birth' can one realize that potential. The cause of the realization of that potential is the spiritual friend. The method is the skillful means of the teachings that are presented by the spiritual friend.

Among these important conditions, it can be said the most important one is that of the relationship with the proper spiritual friend. Given the fact that one does not have the understanding and the recognition of one's ability to experience enlightened mind, one cannot fabricate on one's own a path of which one has no idea; one would have no experiential understanding of the fruition, or even know the starting point. It is an honest fact that however one attempts on one's own to experience completely awakened mind, true awakened mind will not be experienced. One may perhaps experience momentary satisfaction or entertainment, but in order to experience true awakened mind one needs the cause of the spiritual friend, one who has the understanding of the method, and skillful means as well as experience.

As it is said in the 'Mahamudra Liturgy of Aspiration' by the third Karmapa Rangjung Dorje, one must develop the three types of wisdom in order to realize the nature of all phenomena. The first is the wisdom of hearing, which cuts through the ignorance of not knowing, of being uninformed. If something needs to be clarified, to be asserted, proven, or refuted, the wisdom of hearing gives one the opportunity. Then there is the wisdom of deep understanding, which is contemplating what one has heard. Through developing the wisdom of contemplation, of understanding, one breaks through the tapestry of doubts and clears them away. Thirdly, through the wisdom of meditation practice, one becomes enlightened; one begins to realize the fundamental nature of phenomena, not relating to phenomena from the point of view of illusion and the confusion of dualistic clinging. Developing the three types of wisdom in this way is possible through the cause of the spiritual friend. Thus the spiritual friend is indispensable.

The spiritual friend one relates to must have a lineage, because a lineage has a history of transmitting the awakened intelligence, the inspiration or uplifted quality of blessing. When the spiritual friend represents such a lineage, the teachings carry the impact of enlightened intelligence. This can have an important effect in the experience of the sanity of the path that one is involved with. So having a spiritual friend with a lineage is extremely important.

The different types of spiritual friends are classified in accordance with the teachings of the Buddhadharma. A spiritual friend can be just an ordinary person who has more knowledge or realization than oneself, or who is linked to the tradition, having both experience and the transmission of a lineage. A spiritual friend could be a highly realized being, like a nirmanakaya (Tib. tulku), an incarnate being, or a bodhisattva of the different stages, a more subtle manifestation having the transmission of the teachings of the samboghakaya. These different types of spiritual friends may also be embodied in one person. The type of spiritual friend one has depends upon the stages of spiritual growth that one experiences.

Whatever different types and levels of spiritual friends one may relate to, the relationship must be based at least to a certain degree on the three types of confidence. The first is the confidence of clarity, a clarity about the relationship and the importance of it. The second is the confidence of yearning, longing to continue the relationship. The third is the confidence of certitude, that is, some certainty, something decisive, and definite about the relationship. One knows that the relationship is for real, and one engages in it with a real decisiveness, with heart.

In accordance with the stages of the path, the Hinayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana, and the corresponding vows, there are stages in the relationship with the spiritual friend. In the Hinayana, referred to as the lesser vehicle, the greater importance is attached to the proper conduct of the body and the speech, as prescribed by the pratimoksha vow or discipline; in this way it is 'lesser'. In the Mahayana, or 'greater' vehicle, the emphasis is placed on the development of the mind, intellect, and bodhichitta (cultivating the enlightened mind of compassion); the expression of this is the bodhisattva vow. In the Vajrayana there is the presentation of the skillful means, which involves the commitment of the samaya vow. There is a spiritual guide for each stage of the path, one who helps one with the pratimoksha vows and discipline, one who is involved with the bodhisattva vow, and one who is involved with the samaya vow.

Concerning the ordinary spiritual friend, in Tibetan the tern is 'ge-wei' (spiritual virtue) and 'nyen' (friend); this refers to one who serves as a guide on the spiritual path, a friend who is willing to work with one. It is not like any other friendship in one's life; it is not a mundane and samsaric situation in which one is led to being more confused.

It is said that the bodhisattva spiritual friend is one who can definitely effect the experience of awakened mind in the lives of other. The landscape and the landmarks of the journey need to be introduced to us, we need to be awakened to the ability to acquire the necessary knowledge and wisdom.

The bodhisattva teacher is one who has eight qualities.

The first quality or characteristic is practicing the essence of the pratimoksha discipline-abandoning what is harmful to others, directly or indirectly, and the causes of such harm-and embodying the bodhisattva discipline, the essence of which is benefiting others.

The second mark or quality is being learned and knowledgeable in the vast Mahayana teachings, and not being handicapped or limited in presenting the Mahayana teachings, but presenting them in accordance with the need of the situation.

The third quality is not only having heard and understood the vast Mahayana teachings intellectually, but having the experience of the teachings, being capable of presenting the teachings not only from an analytical point of view but from an intuitive and experiential point of view as well. With this quality comes the ability to clarify the doubts and clear away the shortcomings and the obstacles of practitioners.

The fourth point is that the actions and responsibilities of leading students on the path toward awakened mind are performed with joy and compassion.

The fifth quality is fearlessness. Fearlessness is always having the conviction or confidence that regardless of the hard work, the complicated tasks that the situation may require, there is no fear of not succeeding. A charactersistic of the bodhisattva is never becoming disillusioned or disheartened for whatever countless kalpas, eons, no matter how seemingly impossible the task may be.

The sixth quality is patience. This is very much connected with fearlessness; it is not giving up, no matter how longlasting or difficult the situation.

The seventh quality is not becoming saddened or disheartened with being in the world. In a samsaric situation, there are many kinds of ups and downs, but whatever may be the uncertain play of samsara, working in the midst of such a situation is contantly a joyful experience, without the notion of its being overwhelming.

The eight quality of the bodhisattva spiritual friend is known as the fulfillment and accomplishment of the words of the Mahayana. Whatever is taught through the medium of the words of the Mahayana has a benefit and wholesome effect on the minds and lives of other. His Eminence says that those of you who already have spiritual friends and have established the connection, that is that. Those of you who haven't made the link, you know what to look for.



This teaching was given by His Eminence Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche at Karma Triyana Dharmachakra, Woodstock, New York, October 4-6, 1985. It was translated by Ngodrub Burkhar


Also check out the chapter "The qualified master" page 100 ff in "Rainbow Painting" by Tulku Urgyen
http://books.google.de/books?id=yj2tBAk ... &q&f=false
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby heart » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:30 pm

Luke wrote:
heart wrote:True Guru yoga depends on having a Guru but it is still possible to practice Guru yoga as an aspiration. The lineage prayer should be practiced as a Guru yoga. The seven line prayer to Guru Rinpoche is a complete Guru yoga. Many prayers you already know could be consider Guru yoga. You need a little devotion not any precise instructions.

Who better to talk about the "heart of Vajrayana" than Heart himself? Lol.

When you say, "You need a little devotion," you simply mean feeling devotion towards the deities or teachers that one is thinking about during the prayer, right? You didn't necessarily mean devotion towards a living lama when you're practicing Guru Yoga as just an aspiration, right?


When you start on the path of Vajrayana you seldom have a Guru. It is something you have to find. Devotion towards say Tara or Guru Rinpoche and also Longchenpa or Karmapa is a good place to start when training in devotion. To practice Guru yoga as much as possible between sessions is very helpful. Just offer everything you do continuously to the object of your devotion. I am pretty sure this attitude is what will bring a qualified teacher in to your life.
At first your devotion is like an attraction or a fascination. Using this fascination in a continuous way is Guru yoga. Devotion means to open up your heart to the full impact of that fascination in whatever we are doing.
Later on your devotion becomes more like a love affair, you feel most of the time close and confident and sometimes rejected and insecure. At this point your practice gets very stable. Finally, devotion and confidence merge completely. At this point they say that being close or far away doesn't matter and the practice is beyond sessions and breaks.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby Luke » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:08 pm

Dhondrub wrote:In the Kagyu and Nyingma lineages at one point you need a living teacher.

Yes, of course. Thank you for emphasizing that and for posting that teaching.

heart wrote:When you start on the path of Vajrayana you seldom have a Guru. It is something you have to find. Devotion towards say Tara or Guru Rinpoche and also Longchenpa or Karmapa is a good place to start when training in devotion. To practice Guru yoga as much as possible between sessions is very helpful. Just offer everything you do continuously to the object of your devotion. I am pretty sure this attitude is what will bring a qualified teacher in to your life.

Thanks for writing this. I have felt a lot of devotion towards Guru Rinpoche for the past year or so, even though I haven't done much of his formal practices. I was also fortunate enough to receive a Guru Rinpoche empowerment over the summer. I think this is part of what's pulling me in the direction of the Nyingma school. Guru Rinpoche's image and mantra are rarely far from my mind. I didn't realize that this devotion I feel was already sort of Guru-yoga-ish.

This force of attraction has already brought me a potential guru. I've signed up for a meditation retreat where I will meet this lama for the first time. I feel great excitement as the event draws nearer.

I no longer hunger for the fancy details of advanced techniques. I just want to merge my mind with Guru Rinpoche's mind and with a living Nyingma lama's mind.

Image
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby heart » Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:23 am

Luke wrote:Thanks for writing this. I have felt a lot of devotion towards Guru Rinpoche for the past year or so, even though I haven't done much of his formal practices. I was also fortunate enough to receive a Guru Rinpoche empowerment over the summer. I think this is part of what's pulling me in the direction of the Nyingma school. Guru Rinpoche's image and mantra are rarely far from my mind. I didn't realize that this devotion I feel was already sort of Guru-yoga-ish.

This force of attraction has already brought me a potential guru. I've signed up for a meditation retreat where I will meet this lama for the first time. I feel great excitement as the event draws nearer.

I no longer hunger for the fancy details of advanced techniques. I just want to merge my mind with Guru Rinpoche's mind and with a living Nyingma lama's mind.

Image


Then it is easy. Learn how to recite these two prayers by heart http://lotusspeechusa.com/images/padmasambhava.doc . They are both complete practices. The first one there is a fantastic commentary that is translated called "The white lotus" http://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Lotus-Exp ... 746&sr=8-1. The second one is a part of many Guru yogas for example the Ngondro of Chokling Tersar. Dudjom Rinpoche wrote a short commentary on this prayer http://shop.gomde.us/Practice_Texts/The ... t_of_Padma .
Then of course I find this important http://www.lotsawahouse.org/guru_prayer ... ation.html . It is Khyentse Wangpos suggestions how to visualize when reciting prayers such as these. Let it inspire you to do this practice at all times through the day. Offer what you eat and drink and anything good to Guru Rinpoche. Open your heart to him confess your bad behavior to him and dedicate your good behavior to him. Keep him in front of you or above your head at all times. This kind of Guru Yoga is more powerful than sitting on a pillow trying to achieve a particular numbers of recitation of a prayer or a mantra. Also if you in the future would like to count your recitations this informal practice is the greatest support to that in a genuine way.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby narraboth » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:35 pm

Luke wrote: I no longer hunger for the fancy details of advanced techniques. I just want to merge my mind with Guru Rinpoche's mind and with a living Nyingma lama's mind.

Image


Dear Luke,

you might kind of have got the point without 'advanced techniques.'

What I slightly disagree about what id:heart said is, you can't just rely on 'a little devotion', and you can't take praying as guruyoga unless you know how to do guruyoga. If you know the keypoint, ofcourse you can do lineage prayer as guruyoga, otherwise it's just a prayer.

You mentioned 'merge', but what is your idea of merge? Is it like a christian benediction or holy spirit filling you?
I personally think that you can't just take guru, living or not, as an object outside of/different from you. No matter actually how much greater he is than you. A guruyoga with such a strong dualism can't be the supreme path to enlightenment. But we need to have strong devotion still; not a little, we need a strong one.

You need to know how to combine the strong devotion and the view together to make guruyoga work as it should do. It's not that a living guru can teach you some 'advanced techniques' like a secret reciept or manual so he's important, it's that he can guide you with the right view.

But at this point, I think pray to guru rinpoche and all great lamas would be enough, it's very beneficial. And you can pray, I believe we will all pray for you, to meet a real teacher who can guide you on the supreme path.
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby heart » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:27 pm

narraboth wrote:What I slightly disagree about what id:heart said is, you can't just rely on 'a little devotion', and you can't take praying as guruyoga unless you know how to do guruyoga. If you know the keypoint, ofcourse you can do lineage prayer as guruyoga, otherwise it's just a prayer.


We all have to start somewhere narraboth. A little devotion, a slight fascination, might be a good place to start, in particular if you haven't met your Guru yet. The seven line prayer combined with the creative capacity of our mind is the stuff that bring out the magic of auspiciousness. In particular if you have a karmic connection.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Guru Yoga: the heart of Vajrayana?

Postby Luke » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:56 pm

narraboth wrote:You mentioned 'merge', but what is your idea of merge? Is it like a christian benediction or holy spirit filling you?
I personally think that you can't just take guru, living or not, as an object outside of/different from you.

"Merge" is simply a poetic way of expressing myself which I used at that moment. No, I didn't mean anything at all which has anything to do with anything Christian. I stopped thinking much about Christianity when I was 12.

Another way of expressing myself would be to say that I desire a blissful path to realizing rigpa, with devotion to a Nyingma lama and devotion to Guru Rinpoche at its heart. I feel that devotion is more important for attaining enlightenment than technique. By "merge" I mean realizing that the essence of his mind and my mind are the same in their ultimate nature.

narraboth wrote:No matter actually how much greater he is than you. A guruyoga with such a strong dualism can't be the supreme path to enlightenment. But we need to have strong devotion still; not a little, we need a strong one.

Maybe. But it's not a bad place to start. Too many people these days rush after very high teachings which they are not yet ready for and scoff at basic devotional, preparatory practices which build a proper foundation for the more advanced techniques. Without great faith in a guru, little can be accomplished.

Anyway, phrasing myself in a more Buddhistically acceptable fashion right now is just a cosmetic exercise. If I have devotion to a wise lama, he will show me an excellent path to a pure, non-dual view. Right now, any changes I make to my writing are just faking it with words.
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