Monkey mind
Monkey mind
In the realm of emotions we often find elaborate psychological defenses (anxiety, rationalization, withdrawal, acting out) against feeling emotions (anger, sadness, remorse, disgust, even love, joy).
Does a similar thing happen in the realm of mindfulness? Is monkey mind a defense against being mindful, being with "what is?"
Does a similar thing happen in the realm of mindfulness? Is monkey mind a defense against being mindful, being with "what is?"
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Re: Monkey mind
My understanding is that monkey mind is the default condition, due to basic ignorance of "what is."
The antidote is mindfulness, which increases with training. As monkey mind is tamed, "what is" becomes more and more clear.
The antidote is mindfulness, which increases with training. As monkey mind is tamed, "what is" becomes more and more clear.
Re: Monkey mind
I think this is part of the story. But I see another part of monkey mind, mine in any case, a psychological resistance to "what is." That's the one I'm getting at here. Why the resistance, what is it about simply being with "what is" that is threatening?justsit wrote:My understanding is that monkey mind is the default condition, due to basic ignorance of "what is."
The antidote is mindfulness, which increases with training. As monkey mind is tamed, "what is" becomes more and more clear.
By being with "what is" I mean conscious seeing of and "participating in" the present moment.
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Re: Monkey mind
The teachings I have heard identify habitual patterns over many lifetimes as the cause of the "monkey-ness" of mind.
IMO it's more like a toddler whose attention constantly moves from one toy to another. The motivation is not some kind of resistance, but rather the attraction of a bright color or something more "interesting." What is being avoided is lack of stimulation, which is again an habitual response.
What may feel threatening could be as simple as boredom, or as complex as fear of lack of inherent "self."
IMO it's more like a toddler whose attention constantly moves from one toy to another. The motivation is not some kind of resistance, but rather the attraction of a bright color or something more "interesting." What is being avoided is lack of stimulation, which is again an habitual response.
What may feel threatening could be as simple as boredom, or as complex as fear of lack of inherent "self."
Re: Monkey mind
Yes. Both of these seem likely causes of the threatening feeling that arises from (the prospect of) simply being with "what is."justsit wrote:What may feel threatening could be as simple as boredom, or as complex as fear of lack of inherent "self."
The unadorned present moment can easily feel boring for those of us who live from (melo)dramatic stimulus to stimulus. If you're a stimulus junkie, giving up that (melo)drama, even for a few minutes, can feel oppressively boring, like dead air.
Even deeper I think is the fear of lack of self. Self is not invited to the party of simply being with "what is." Or, to be more accurate, reified self driving the organism is not invited. Self, along with everything else, IS invited in the sense that when feelings of self arise, they are part of "what is."
Anything else besides boredom and fear of lack of self cause the feeling of being threatened by oneness with "what is?"
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Re: Monkey mind
That's the best I can come up with. I do not experience "what is" as threatening.
Re: Monkey mind
I do. Or at least I deduce that I feel threatened because I experience so much resistance to simply being with "what is."justsit wrote: That's the best I can come up with. I do not experience "what is" as threatening.
Thanks, justsit.
Anyone else lend their take to this dixcussion?
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Re: Monkey mind
May I ask, how would you describe "what is?"
Re: Monkey mind
The totality of what mindfulness -- or, in KrishnamurtiSpeak choiceless awareness -- sees.justsit wrote:May I ask, how would you describe "what is?"
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Re: Monkey mind
I'm not familiar with Krishnamurti's writings. Does that definition include dependently arisen phenomena?
Re: Monkey mind
I think so. But just to be sure I know what you mean, please clarify, give an example, etc.justsit wrote:I'm not familiar with Krishnamurti's writings. Does that definition include dependently arisen phenomena?
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Re: Monkey mind
Boredom and stimulus are another version of lack of self / false sense of self ... there are lots of ways to describe it.
How can one resist what is? "what is" is boredom, etc. Practice can see what is. We can call it resistance, that's what it looks like, but I wonder how much is simply a fixation of mind... sometimes called attachment. It's all a thought.
We are not in charge of fixed mind nor open, spacious mind although practice can shine some light of awareness.
How can one resist what is? "what is" is boredom, etc. Practice can see what is. We can call it resistance, that's what it looks like, but I wonder how much is simply a fixation of mind... sometimes called attachment. It's all a thought.
We are not in charge of fixed mind nor open, spacious mind although practice can shine some light of awareness.
Last edited by Lindama on Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
Re: Monkey mind
Some examples are buildings, people, emotions - anything that does not have inherent existence.
I think this is as far as I can go with this discussion. My vocabulary for delving more deeply into this topic is sadly lacking.
Hopefully some of our more erudite members will help.
I think this is as far as I can go with this discussion. My vocabulary for delving more deeply into this topic is sadly lacking.
Hopefully some of our more erudite members will help.
Re: Monkey mind
Well in the sense of "what is" being everything that exists, one always IS (with) "what is."Lindama wrote:How can one resist what is?
But one can certainly resist conscious awareness of "what is."
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
Re: Monkey mind
Yes, "what is" includes objects in the world of form.justsit wrote:Some examples are buildings, people, emotions - anything that does not have inherent existence.
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Re: Monkey mind
everything that exists is in one's mind... there is nothing outside of us.
I do appreciate that it's a good thing to expand our consiousness for the sake of freedom and awakening, but what is = what is... it knows "everything that exists" according to it's view .... that is a thought, a self-conscious thought.
the mind changes, the world changes? thus, no permanent existance.
huh, maybe monkey mind has a few things to teach too! ... like flexibility and swinging from tree to tree.
I do appreciate that it's a good thing to expand our consiousness for the sake of freedom and awakening, but what is = what is... it knows "everything that exists" according to it's view .... that is a thought, a self-conscious thought.
the mind changes, the world changes? thus, no permanent existance.
huh, maybe monkey mind has a few things to teach too! ... like flexibility and swinging from tree to tree.
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
Re: Monkey mind
Lindama wrote:I do appreciate that it's a good thing to expand our consiousness for the sake of freedom and awakening,
Isn't that what mindfulness is: conscious awareness of what is (there, happening, arising, fading, etc.)?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
Re: Monkey mind
don't know... I've always had a confusion about what mindfulness actually is. certainly heard the term many times... it seems a bit like trying to control the monkey... or chewing a raisin 100 times which has been recommended! good luck!rachmiel wrote:Lindama wrote:I do appreciate that it's a good thing to expand our consiousness for the sake of freedom and awakening,
Isn't that what mindfulness is: conscious awareness of what is (there, happening, arising, fading, etc.)?
Last edited by Lindama on Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
Re: Monkey mind
Taming the monkey ... but hopefully not spanking it.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
Re: Monkey mind
Well yeah. That's all there is to it. Paying attention to what's happening right now.rachmiel wrote:Lindama wrote:I do appreciate that it's a good thing to expand our consiousness for the sake of freedom and awakening,
Isn't that what mindfulness is: conscious awareness of what is (there, happening, arising, fading, etc.)?