In the KUNJED GYALPO says it is of no use to do rituals

[Wayuu]

Hi all, sorry for my english, I am from Venezuela and have been practicing Dzogchen since last year.

I am reading "The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde" (Kunjed Gyalpo), and it says that it is of no use to do mudras, mantras, also Ganapuja?

What do you think? Or if you can explain please.

Gracias!

[padma norbu]

Yeah, stuff like this can be confusing. I think it means that ultimately it's not really necessary theoretically (ie. once you have recognized the nature of your own mind), but realistically, relatively, all the bells and whistles are useful for people with "lesser lights" (ie. many obscurations) to build up belief and faith, break old habits and form new ones. That's my opinion.

Actually, I just looked it up. On page 206 it is talking about realization through dzogchen practice, leaving the 3 doors free and open.

[Wayuu]

Yes it's confusing... but taking it literally I understand that doesn't matter what "level of lights" we are, the direct way is what is described in the KUNJED GYALPO... anyway Im just a beginner in Dzogchen, I already did one direct introduction through webcast with Namkhai Norbu, and have assisted few times to practice shine with the Dzogchen community here in Caracas, I also had the oportunity to be in a Ganapuja but I didn't liked it... I like to do things the most simple and direct, and I think that would be the easiest way for everyone right? but that is just my point of view I think... I respect all religions and rituals always that no beings are hurt. When I have the chance I will ask a Dzogchen teacher about this and let you know, and please if someone has the chance to do it before me I highly appreciate it if you can share here.

Blessings

[Pero]

Hi all, sorry for my english, I am from Venezuela and have been practicing Dzogchen since last year.

I am reading "The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde" (Kunjed Gyalpo), and it says that it is of no use to do mudras, mantras, also Ganapuja?

What do you think? Or if you can explain please.

Gracias!

It's no use for your primordial state but it is useful for you.

[Wayuu]

Hi all, sorry for my english, I am from Venezuela and have been practicing Dzogchen since last year.

I am reading "The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde" (Kunjed Gyalpo), and it says that it is of no use to do mudras, mantras, also Ganapuja?

What do you think? Or if you can explain please.

Gracias!

It's no use for your primordial state but it is useful for you.

But when you say is useful for me you are talking about duality again... doesn't that just distract us? isn't better to go direct?

[Pero]

Hi all, sorry for my english, I am from Venezuela and have been practicing Dzogchen since last year.

I am reading "The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde" (Kunjed Gyalpo), and it says that it is of no use to do mudras, mantras, also Ganapuja?

What do you think? Or if you can explain please.

Gracias!

It's no use for your primordial state but it is useful for you.

But when you say is useful for me you are talking about duality again... doesn't that just distract us? isn't better to go direct?

If you can, sure. But then, what exactly do you mean "go direct"?

[Wayuu]

I mean aplying what's said in the KUNJED GALPO...

[krodha]

But when you say is useful for me you are talking about duality again... doesn't that just distract us? isn't better to go direct?

You as an individual are the result of confusion (or ignorance) about your primordial state. Your primordial state is originally pure and is always undefiled, however your knowledge of that primordial state requires introduction and refinement. The kun byed rgyal po is saying that from the perspective of your primordial state [primordial wisdom i.e. ye shes], practice, rituals and so on are extraneous, because your primordial state is naturally perfected. You as an individual on the other hand, need to refine your knowledge of your primordial state, and therefore for you, practice and rituals and so on, are necessary. So it's a paradox. The ultimate state requires nothing, but you in your relative condition do require practice. When your knowledge of your primordial state is complete (through practice and integration), there will no longer be a difference between you and primordial wisdom. Until that time though, relative effort is required.

[anjali]

I am reading "The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde" (Kunjed Gyalpo), and it says that it is of no use to do mudras, mantras, also Ganapuja?

Actions alone can't overcome ignorance. The only thing that overcomes ignorance is wisdom. What is critically important in practicing mantras, pujas, etc is practicing with insight.

[Wayuu]

But when you say is useful for me you are talking about duality again... doesn't that just distract us? isn't better to go direct?

You as an individual are the result of confusion (or ignorance) about your primordial state. Your primordial state is originally pure and is always undefiled, however your knowledge of that primordial state requires introduction and refinement. The kun byed rgyal po is saying that from the perspective of your primordial state [primordial wisdom i.e. ye shes], practice, rituals and so on are extraneous, because your primordial state is naturally perfected. You as an individual on the other hand, need to refine your knowledge of your primordial state, and therefore for you, practice and rituals and so on, are necessary. So it's a paradox. The ultimate state requires nothing, but you in your relative condition do require practice. When your knowledge of your primordial state is complete (through practice and integration), there will no longer be a difference between you and primordial wisdom. Until that time though, relative effort is required.

What I understand is that effort is not the way in any condition, but as I said, I'm just a beginner, I will try to talk to a qualified teacher and let you know his opinion.

[krodha]

But when you say is useful for me you are talking about duality again... doesn't that just distract us? isn't better to go direct?

You as an individual are the result of confusion (or ignorance) about your primordial state. Your primordial state is originally pure and is always undefiled, however your knowledge of that primordial state requires introduction and refinement. The kun byed rgyal po is saying that from the perspective of your primordial state [primordial wisdom i.e. ye shes], practice, rituals and so on are extraneous, because your primordial state is naturally perfected. You as an individual on the other hand, need to refine your knowledge of your primordial state, and therefore for you, practice and rituals and so on, are necessary. So it's a paradox. The ultimate state requires nothing, but you in your relative condition do require practice. When your knowledge of your primordial state is complete (through practice and integration), there will no longer be a difference between you and primordial wisdom. Until that time though, relative effort is required.

What I understand is that effort is not the way in any condition, but as I said, I'm just a beginner, I will try to talk to a qualified teacher and let you know his opinion.

Skillful effort is required until the ultimate nature of mind [sems nyid] is recognized. Through that recognition, the ability to distinguish mind from wisdom occurs, and the practice then is to familiarize and rest in one's knowledge [rig pa] of wisdom [ye shes]. That practice is 'effortless', because effort necessarily entails a subject who is attempting to 'do something' or 'maintain something'. However there is nothing which is being 'done' in that sense, because that definitive rigpa is free of mind, and is therefore free of a subject which is mediating experience. So the praxis is simply resting in that effortless natural state.

The definitive practice is effortless, however initially, some (skillful) effort is required. Good that you're maintaining a relationship with a qualified teacher though, the seemingly contradictory paradoxes like the issue you've raised here are precisely why the guru is an indispensable aspect of Dzogchen.

[Wayuu]

Thanks for your replies asunthatneversets, have you asked this question to a qualified teacher?

[krodha]

Thanks for your replies asunthatneversets, have you asked this question to a qualified teacher?

Yes, and here is a qualified teacher clarifying this point:

"Lopon comments that while the practitioner is not distracted but is continuously in the natural state it is as if he or she is in space - whatever is done, no traces are left behind. As we said, whether you paint black or white on space nothing remains. The base that keeps the traces is lost; it is empty.
Of course this only applies to a practitioner who has achieved continuous contemplation. For other people who still grasp at their karmic traces this does not apply. When the Lopon first came to Swayambhu in Nepal in 1944 he met some Tibetans with whom he travelled for some days. One man was a former monk who had a wife and children and was carrying a huge load of luggage on his back. When he was a monk he had met Dega Rinpoche, a famous Dzogchenpa, in the mountains and consequentially he gave up his robes because he felt he was too tied up with the vinaya vows. But Lopon pointed out that he was equally tied up with his children. The man replied that in Dzogchen it is said that it does not matter what you do - so he was free to do anything and that was okay. But this is a complete misunderstanding of Dzogchen. The teachings only apply when you are totally absorbed in the natural state. It depends on your practice and only you can judge.
So it is a paradox that beginners must take actions even though the ultimate Dzogchen view has no action. The beginner must take a very strong action - a decision - otherwise there will be doubt and hesitancy. All the preparatory methods help us realize the natural state. But once it is seen and understood then the situation is different. The experience Dzogchenpa would not need to do preparatory practices at all."
- Lopon Tenzin Namdak

and another from him on the same issue:

"In the practice of Dzogchen, we do not find it necessary to do visualizations of deities or to do recitations like the Refuge and Bodhichitta. Some would say that these are not necessary to do at all, but this is speaking from the side of the Natural State only. They say in the Natural State, everything is present there already in potential, and so there is nothing lacking and nothing more to do to add or acquire anything. This is fine. But on the side of the practitioner, there is much to do and practices such as Refuge and Bodhichitta are very necessary. In its own terms, Dzogchen has no rules; it is open to everything. But does this mean we can do just what we feel like at the moment? On the side of the Natural State, this is true and there are no restrictions or limitations. All appearances are manifestations of mind (sems kyi snang-ba), like reflections seen in a mirror, and there is no inherent negativity or impurity in them. Everything is perfectly all right just as it is, as the energy (rtsal) of the Nature of Mind in manifestation. It is like white and black clouds passing overhead in the sky; they equally obscure the face of the sun. When they depart, there are no traces left behind. However, that is speaking only on the side of the Natural State, which is like the clear, open sky, unaffected by the presence or absence of these clouds. For the sky, it is all the same. But on the side of the practitioner, it is quite different because we mistakenly believe these clouds are solid, opaque, and quite real and substantial. As practitioners we must first come to an understanding of the insubstantiality and unreality of all these clouds which obscure the sky of our own Nature of Mind (sems-nyid). It is our Tawa (lta-ba), or view, our way of looking at things, which is basic and fundamental, and we must begin here. Then we must practice and attain realization. So on the side of the practitioner, practice and commitment are most certainly required. The Natural State in itself is totally open and clear and spacious like the sky but we, as individuals, are not totally open and unobstructed.”
- Lopon Tenzin Namdak

[Wayuu]

I still don't understand that explanation, I see it contradictory... anyway I will keep studying, and share with you any news.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Some would say that these are not necessary to do at all, but this is speaking from the side of the Natural State only.

I still don't understand that explanation, I see it contradictory...

My take on it is that realization is retroactive; once you get there you see that it was there all along. But until you get there that's simply an academic point. Looking at it like that there is no contradiction, anymore than a retroactive pay raise at work is a contradiction.

[Wayuu]

Some would say that these are not necessary to do at all, but this is speaking from the side of the Natural State only.

My take on it is that realization is retroactive; once you get there you see that it was there all along. But until you get there that's simply an academic point.

I agree with you, but how do you relate that focusing on the rituals and the most direct practice for being in the natural state specifically?

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

My take on it is that realization is retroactive; once you get there you see that it was there all along. But until you get there that's simply an academic point

I agree with you, but how do you relate that focusing on the rituals and the most direct practice for being in the natural state specifically

ChNN "Crystal and the Way of Light" p.32:

"…a Zogqen practitioner may use practices from any of the levels of sutra or tantra, if the are found to be necessary to remove obstacles that block the state of contemplation."


I've also seen quotes from ChNN about doing "lower" practices from a Dzogchen perspective. I think it was in the same book, but I'm not that savvy about his writings to know for sure.

[Wayuu]

My take on it is that realization is retroactive; once you get there you see that it was there all along. But until you get there that's simply an academic point

I agree with you, but how do you relate that focusing on the rituals and the most direct practice for being in the natural state specifically

ChNN "Crystal and the Way of Light" p.32:

"…a Zogqen practitioner may use practices from any of the levels of sutra or tantra, if the are found to be necessary to remove obstacles that block the state of contemplation."


I've also seen quotes from ChNN about doing "lower" practices from a Dzogchen perspective. I think it was in the same book, but I'm not that savvy about his writings to know for sure.

I have been told the same from some students in the comunity here, but doesn't that statements seem contradictory compared to what is said in the K.G.?

[Wayuu]

This is one example:

As one's mind, beyond conceptual elaborations, is the ultimate dimension of existence, [it is] in this freedom from concepts [that] all the Buddhas abide. So, do not follow a gradual path!

[krodha]

I have been told the same from some students in the comunity here, but doesn't that statements seem contradictory compared to what is said in the K.G.?

The kun byed rgyal po is speaking from the ultimate standpoint as primordial wisdom. The system of Dzogchen is a means to recognize primordial wisdom, integrate with primordial wisdom, and then actualize buddhahood. That is what practice is for.