Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby Indrajala » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:52 am

Tilopa wrote:
spiritnoname wrote:You guys,.. people don't go to hell for pranks, more matters than just the object and the activity, the intention matters.


Maybe it was his intention was to be disruptive and disrespectful. I don't think there's anything particularly meritorious in deliberately provoking anger in others no matter who they are.


Sure, but I imagine those in charge of punitive measures would probably be driven by anger when deciding on a course of action.

That's still unwholesome karma even if you're just repaying his ill deed.
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby Tilopa » Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:08 am

Huseng wrote:
Tilopa wrote:
spiritnoname wrote:You guys,.. people don't go to hell for pranks, more matters than just the object and the activity, the intention matters.


Maybe it was his intention was to be disruptive and disrespectful. I don't think there's anything particularly meritorious in deliberately provoking anger in others no matter who they are.


Sure, but I imagine those in charge of punitive measures would probably be driven by anger when deciding on a course of action.

That's still unwholesome karma even if you're just repaying his ill deed.


Yes he has created negative karma for himself and caused others to do likewise. Not a very good outcome.
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby Indrajala » Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:25 am

Tilopa wrote:Yes he has created negative karma for himself and caused others to do likewise. Not a very good outcome.


So the cycle of negative actions should be ceased out of compassion. Retaliation against ill actions just fuels the cycle and all parties involved suffer.

You harmed me, I will harm you. The former will then feel the need to retaliate against the latter and vice versa.

Forgiveness is the first step towards freeing oneself of ill will against others. You can still call him an asshole, but just don't feel ill will against him.
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby muni » Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:08 pm

muni wrote:Our pride to belong to a certain lineage/school/tradition.


Yes Muni, people get attached to lineage and tradition, I agree. However to call people out as losers for following a legitimate Buddhist path is going too far. I think as a Dharma Wheel group we should let this behavior become extinct.

Best,
Laura
Last edited by muni on Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby Tilopa » Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:54 pm

Huseng wrote:So the cycle of negative actions should be ceased out of compassion. Retaliation against ill actions just fuels the cycle and all parties involved suffer.

You harmed me, I will harm you. The former will then feel the need to retaliate against the latter and vice versa.

Forgiveness is the first step towards freeing oneself of ill will against others. You can still call him an asshole, but just don't feel ill will against him.


Correct! :anjali:
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby shel » Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:16 pm

Tilopa wrote:
Huseng wrote:So the cycle of negative actions should be ceased out of compassion. Retaliation against ill actions just fuels the cycle and all parties involved suffer.

You harmed me, I will harm you. The former will then feel the need to retaliate against the latter and vice versa.

Forgiveness is the first step towards freeing oneself of ill will against others. You can still call him an asshole, but just don't feel ill will against him.


Correct! :anjali:


Uh, what? You don't call someone an asshole to make them feel good. It's a harsh insult meant to hurt someone's feelings. Whatever caused the impulse to hurt someone's feelings, acting on that impulse and harshly insulting someone is clearly not a step in the direction of forgiveness or freeing oneself of ill will.
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby spiritnoname » Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:57 pm

muni wrote:
spiritnoname wrote:
Another reason for me to think Zen is for losers.
quote]

Our pride to belong to a certain lineage/school/tradition.



It's not a matter of pride on my part, it's a matter of discernment,. I'm not impressed by Zen practitioners, I wouldn't waste my time learning from a school that seems to have nothing to offer. Maybe I will run into a group of austere Zen practitioners with a treasury of good qualities and I will change my mind, but for now it's like say I want to be skinny, I'm not going to eat or do what fat people do, I'm going to find people that are losing fat and eat and do what they do. And of course if someone asks me, "Can I become skinny by mimicking fat people?" I will say no, tell them the reasons.
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby tamdrin » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:13 am

While spiritnoname you didn't meet BodhiDharma or Dogen. Maybe you would have been impressed by them. Then again you didn't meet Buddha, but what school would he belong today. Western zen newbies don't necessarily reflect the results the Zen tradition could produce now do they.
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby Indrajala » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:22 am

shel wrote:Uh, what? You don't call someone an asshole to make them feel good. It's a harsh insult meant to hurt someone's feelings. Whatever caused the impulse to hurt someone's feelings, acting on that impulse and harshly insulting someone is clearly not a step in the direction of forgiveness or freeing oneself of ill will.


Not really. Asshole in modern English just generally refers to an inconsiderate person. It is often said in jest.
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby spiritnoname » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:07 am

tamdrin wrote:While spiritnoname you didn't meet BodhiDharma or Dogen. Maybe you would have been impressed by them. Then again you didn't meet Buddha, but what school would he belong today. Western zen newbies don't necessarily reflect the results the Zen tradition could produce now do they.



And maybe if I met Jesus I would believe in God. I don't like this maybe. When a school produces junk students, I think, that school is not doing things right. I have met a good deal of people full of euphemisms and politically correct generalities who get bent out of shape when they hear what Buddha Shakyamuni actually taught, they disturb teachings because they disagree, they make Buddhism look bad because they don't know what they're talking about, they lack integrity and make things up and attribute them to Buddha, they hold to no moral restraints, and they call themselves Zen practitioners, many tell me for 20 -30 years. There is no guess work here, you can see these things, this is not opinion. And then there are particular Zen groups,... their hack attempts to rewrite Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings to fit their "modern" samsaric views is abominable and also not opinion, it's visible to everyone.

So yeah, if you want to defend Zen, you do it by showing me what good Zen has done. Debate about what is "good" Buddhism, postulations, and convoluted philosophical talk won't change my mind when I look out my window and see junk practitioners who might as well not even know the word Zen because it hasn't benefited anyone.
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby spiritnoname » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:11 am

Harsh speech is not always against the training,.. also some things we must say are not but appear like malicious speech solely because it refers to a object someone defends.

For instance, maybe someone is bad at making hats and I pay them to make one for me, when I see the hat and say, "Your hat is bad", a person without integrity will not accept the meaning of this, that their hat is bad, but instead diverts the attention to me to defend their ego, saying I use harsh speech, discriminating against their hat, whatever. This sounds absurd, childish, but people do it all the time, all the time when people are teaching Buddhism, maybe they talk about wrong views which correspond to various religions, someone will get offended, cry "harsh speech" or whatever, but it is not harsh speech, they get offended because of they have some relationship to that thing and don't want to hear. The best thing to do is avoid these people generally, they have no integrity and only want words that please them and fit their ideas.
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:35 am

Below I've provided the Terms of Service for review for those in this thread who need reminding. Ad hominem remarks won't be tolerated (such as calling people assholes), nor will sect-bashing. Zen Buddhism is not for losers, it's a legitimate Buddhist path. It's not for everyone I'm sure, but it is for some. Further inappropriate posts will be deleted without notice and warnings issued.

I don't like to be heavy handed, pleases note that in part 1 of the ToS members are expected to try to self-moderate and keep a friendly tone in discussions. If anyone here sees serious problems with Zen please take it over to the Dharma free for all.

I'm just going through this thread and cleaning it up. Please try to keep the ridiculousness to a dull roar.

1. All members are responsible for their own Right Speech Temporary addition: no flaming.

Members are expected to self-moderate, being mindful of the adage that 'behaviour breeds behaviour'. Mutual respect and friendliness should be the basis of all interactions. The views presented by Dharma Wheel members are not necessarily the views of the administrators or moderators. If you find anything objectionable, let the admin or mods know using the Report Post function and we'll look into it.

2. Do not be disruptive

Dharma Wheel is an environment for the discussion of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. All are welcome but are required to abide by the TOS. Special forums have been created for special areas of interest so please respect these boundaries. Dharma Wheel administrators and moderators reserve the right to edit inappropriate content, and to remove or transfer any posts or threads that are not relevant to the sub-forum in which they are posted. Any subject matter that may be off-topic or is intended only to cause disruption or harm to others may be removed without notice. This includes the badmouthing of other Buddhist discussion forums, trolling and proselytizing.
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby Tilopa » Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:38 am

Ngawang Drolma wrote:Below I've provided the Terms of Service for review for those in this thread who need reminding. Ad hominem remarks won't be tolerated (such as calling people assholes), nor will sect-bashing. Zen Buddhism is not for losers, it's a legitimate Buddhist path. It's not for everyone I'm sure, but it is for some. Further inappropriate posts will be deleted without notice and warnings issued.


Thanks for the timely and appropriate intervention. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby Indrajala » Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:11 am

spiritnoname wrote:
So yeah, if you want to defend Zen, you do it by showing me what good Zen has done. Debate about what is "good" Buddhism, postulations, and convoluted philosophical talk won't change my mind when I look out my window and see junk practitioners who might as well not even know the word Zen because it hasn't benefited anyone.


I am presently a student at Komazawa University in Tokyo. It officially belongs to Soto Zen and includes a seminary and large Buddhist studies faculty and library. So, perhaps I have some authority to speak about modern Zen in Japan.

To say the least, Zen Buddhism in Japan is a bit different from Zen Buddhism in the English speaking world. To be honest, there isn't a lot of crossover between the two except for a few celebrated individuals. One might go for a trip to Eihei-ji, but unless you speak Japanese very well they'll just treat you as a guest and you'll not really "get into" the organization so to speak.

Anyway, modern Zen in Japan is a far cry from what it was even one hundred years ago. There is little regard for precepts and such consumption of alcohol and killing pesky insects is not an issue. There is not much of a "karmic consciousness" (constant awareness of karma) as so far as I've observed. A lot of temples are just inherited funeral businesses that people get stuck with as monks marry and pass their robes and property to their children or more usually a single son.

It is odd because if you read Dogen for example he talks quite clearly about karma, rebirth, the need for precepts and a lot of other topics which for Buddhists should be axiomatic but in our present day are not. He scolded monks for having a closet for private possessions. He insisted on just having robes and a begging bowl. Anything else was extravagant.

That sort of lifestyle is the stuff of legends nowadays. If a Japanese monk just abstains from meat, doesn't have a girlfriend and never drinks alcohol, people will think he's quite amazing and exceptional, meanwhile next door in Korea or Taiwan that's just the basic expectation of how a monk should conduct himself. You don't get bonus points for not eating meat -- it is just common knowledge that monks don't eat meat.

Needless to say there are a lot of problems and I think Soto Zen along with most of Japanese Buddhism is in a rapid state of decay. The number of Buddhist priests and temples has decreased significantly in the last few decades and the trend will continue. Japanese society doesn't care about Buddhism anymore. There is the odd person who likes the literature, but the perception amongst anyone younger than the baby boomer is that it is an archaic funeral service.

Now, that being said, Soto Zen invests a lot of money into the scholarship of Buddhism. Not only Zen, but even Tibetan, Sanskrit and Pali studies as well. They also host discussions on human rights and so on. They're generally all good people. However, there is a lot of apathy about Buddhism. Religion in Japan takes a secondary role to the demands of society and culture. The latter are by default nihilistic and materialistic in their ideology. Conformity being a virtue in Japan, it is best to tow the mainstream line regardless of what Shakyamuni taught.

The Zen Buddhism you probably are referring to is the English speaking Zen.

For various reasons, it tends to be readily warped to suit the tastes of people. Rejection of rebirth and karma are the obvious examples. The fact that anyone can write a book on Zen and have it sold alongside books by elder masters like Ven. Shengyan or HHDL is disappointing.

What I see going on is that Zen in America for example might have a few Japanese priests hanging around, but they themselves come from a culture of apathy towards actual practise and preservation of Buddhadharma, so there really is nobody to say the warped versions of Zen that are arising is wrong. You have a bunch of people with a half-baked adaptation of Zen selling it (and it is sold in many cases) and few would know how poor the product is.

Case in point:

Image

Here in Japan, however, almost nobody knows about this kind of nonsense. They also wouldn't care.

In the case of Theravada, Tibetan or Chinese lineages, if someone tried to do the same thing you'd have a sharp response from a large community of dedicated elders who actually believe in what Shakyamuni taught. With Zen you can just get away teaching anything you want because the organizations themselves back in Japan just don't really care.

I think there might be a parallel between Yoga and Zen in that Zen as it went abroad likewise lost its spiritual significance and it became a simple exercise and lifestyle from the exotic East.
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby spiritnoname » Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:52 am

Drolma, maybe the Zen related posts could be moved to a new topic under the Dharma-free-for-all? I tend to repeat myself whenever the subject comes up, but it would be a waste to lose Huseng's post.
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby muni » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:35 am

Yes Muni, people get attached to lineage and tradition, I agree. However to call people out as losers for following a legitimate Buddhist path is going too far. I think as a Dharma Wheel group we should let this behavior become extinct.

Best,
Laura

Hello Laura,

When one if proud, very easy for poison to fill our being with jealousy, games with eachother, narrow-mindedness, fear of rejection, insensivity and self-pity which close us for compassion. Specially in religion and even in Buddhist traditions we cling by pride when the thought is there to be right (but debate is inspiring interaction, not meant to increase delusion). (In history more fellows died by religion than in the 2 worldwars).
Sure one respect the teachings.
We only can be careful as afflictions like envy, aversion get birth by "my tradition"-clinging, which is worldly clinging and no Buddhism.

but good, it is confirmed as not to be pride here. Okay.

:namaste:
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby Heruka » Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:02 pm

shel wrote:
Tilopa wrote:
Huseng wrote:So the cycle of negative actions should be ceased out of compassion. Retaliation against ill actions just fuels the cycle and all parties involved suffer.

You harmed me, I will harm you. The former will then feel the need to retaliate against the latter and vice versa.

Forgiveness is the first step towards freeing oneself of ill will against others. You can still call him an asshole, but just don't feel ill will against him.


Correct! :anjali:


Uh, what? You don't call someone an asshole to make them feel good. It's a harsh insult meant to hurt someone's feelings. Whatever caused the impulse to hurt someone's feelings, acting on that impulse and harshly insulting someone is clearly not a step in the direction of forgiveness or freeing oneself of ill will.



being afraid to hear what is not pleasent to our ears is still grasping no?


the dhammapada clearly says,

by oneself, wrong is done


the conditions were present for this nonsense to arise, the teachings of cause and effect say that it is not what arises, but how we react to its arrival that conditions us.
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby KwanSeum » Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:23 pm

"Tune in next week to see Nathynael throw a stink bomb in an old peoples home.

Even funnier.

Even tougher.

Nathynael you're my hero."
'Accepting things as they are' and striving to improve them is living the Dharma while causing or accepting suffering because 'that's the way things are' is Nihilism.
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:03 pm

spiritnoname wrote:Drolma, maybe the Zen related posts could be moved to a new topic under the Dharma-free-for-all? I tend to repeat myself whenever the subject comes up, but it would be a waste to lose Huseng's post.


Hi spiritnoname,

I thought about that, thanks for the suggestion. But I think everything in this thread is on-topic. Please feel free to start a thread in the Zen forum with your questions and ideas.

Best,
Laura
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Re: Guy disturbs Zen monk's meditation (video)

Postby catmoon » Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:28 pm

I think it would have been a hoot if the guy blew his horn and nothing happened, nothing at all, and no one even mentioned it to him.
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