Responsibility of the Bodhisattva.

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Re: Responsability of the Bodhisattva.

Postby Heruka » Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:36 am

Individual wrote:
Heruka wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote: Which is that this modern capitalistic lifestyle does not work, it does not make us happy.


your mistaking croynism with free markets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronyism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism


:anjali:

they are not the same capitalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

You're using a political term, not an economic one. It's best to know the terms and ideas involved here.

And there is no such thing as "crony capitalism" in the study of economics because it's a value-laden term, from a certain point-of-view.

I get what you're saying, though. So to be more clear: Capitalism and Socialism are both theoretical extremes of either private or public ownership over the means of production which are virtually never fully realized in practice, so all economies are in reality mixed-markets and the question is different. For the average, uneducated person it's about "Capitalism vs. Socialism". You hear this B.S. on TV all the time. But in reality, that is an oversimplification of how economies work. Markets fail but governments do too, for various reasons. If you treat either markets or governments as being like universal solutions to any economic or social problem, you are in reality no different than somebody who believes in trying to cure cancer or AIDS through faith-healing or voodoo.





you make good clarification, economies and countries are more akin to farming husbandry. maybe another thread can explain that.
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Re: Responsability of the Bodhisattva.

Postby Tilopa » Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:33 am

Individual wrote: Where I live, homeless people have been trying to sneak into the local community college at night to sleep, because it's cold at night and they apparently lack shelter, for whatever reason. If they don't have shelter, in the middle of the winter, they will die of exposure; it happens every year. Whereas the "Free Tibet" crowd could be spending their money on sleeping bags for the homeless and making soup, they spend their money on stupid ****ing statues and prayer flags, and others like them stand on the street corner handing out pamphlets on vegetarianism while people elsewhere starve to death.


So doing something to try and ease the suffering of Tibetans and encouraging people to abandon eating living beings are things which have no value whereas feeding the homeless is a legitimate activity? Should we also not care care about global warming, environmental degradation, the slave trade or child prostitution? It seems to me compassion can express itself in many meaningful ways and it's not right to criticize another persons preferred cause just because it's not part of our own agenda. Far better to rejoice that people care enough to want to help those who experience hardship and problems whatever they might be.
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Re: Responsability of the Bodhisattva.

Postby ground » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:23 am

Tilopa wrote:It seems to me compassion can express itself in many meaningful ways ... Far better to rejoice that people care enough to want to help those who experience hardship and problems whatever they might be.

Right so. The kinds of sufferings are countless as are the compassionate deeds. And to rejoice in the compassionate deeds of others is an efficient means to develop one's own qualities based on which one will be able to benefit other beings. However to criticize compassionate deeds of others is to create obstacles for one's own progress towards being able to benefit others.

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Re: Responsability of the Bodhisattva.

Postby swampflower » Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:50 pm

Individual wrote:
muni wrote:Whereas the "Free Tibet" crowd could be spending their money on sleeping bags for the homeless and making soup, they spend their money on stupid ****ing statues and prayer flags, and others like them stand on the street corner handing out pamphlets on vegetarianism while people elsewhere starve to death.



I may not be a Bodhisattva, but I do send money to many charities. I also support Fee Tibet!
I also spend some of my money on "stupid ****ing statues and prayer flags".
Man, some people are just plain RUDE!
It is none of your ******* business where I spend my money or what charity I support.
( ******* means everloving: Haha)
Get off the :soapbox:
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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Re: Responsability of the Bodhisattva.

Postby spiritnoname » Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:48 pm

You don't have Bodhisattva vows?
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Re: Responsability of the Bodhisattva.

Postby Tilopa » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:26 am

spiritnoname wrote:You don't have Bodhisattva vows?


Taking bodhisattva vows is simple enough but of itself doesn't make you a bodhisattva. For that to happen you need non-fabricated bodhicitta, something which is not so easy to generate.
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Re: Responsability of the Bodhisattva.

Postby swampflower » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:29 am

Tilopa wrote:
spiritnoname wrote:You don't have Bodhisattva vows?


Taking bodhisattva vows is simple enough but of itself doesn't make you a bodhisattva. For that to happen you need non-fabricated bodhicitta, something which is not so easy to generate.


Nagarjuna’s The Praise of Dharmadatu
“When enshrouded by the net of delusions
They are known as sentient beings
But when free from delusions
They are known as Buddhas”

Candrakirti’s Commentary to Nagarjuna’s Root Text on Wisdom
“The mind of Compassion, the non-dual awareness, and the mind of enlightenment are the causes of the children of the Conquerors”

Nagarjuna’s Jewelled Garland
“Should I and the world
Wish to attain highest enlightenment
The roots of that are bodhicitta
Stable as a king of mountains
Compassion which reaches the limits
And the wisdom which does not rely on duality”
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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Re: Responsability of the Bodhisattva.

Postby spiritnoname » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:44 am

:thinking:

Do you have a reference for that statement Tilopa?

There are many rules in the various sets of vows for not overstating our level of attainment, not to state some classes of attainments to some classes of people, and because of these rules people shy away from even saying they are a Bodhisattva, much less what bhumi, but I cannot think of any reason not to call people who have taken the Bodhisattva vows and hold them clean Bodhisattvas. I think if you hold Bodhisattva vows,.. that's it, you're a Bodhisattva of some level or another, especially considering to hold the Bodhisattva vows clean you have to hold to Bodhicitta, it's a rule.
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Re: Responsability of the Bodhisattva.

Postby Tilopa » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:33 am

spiritnoname wrote::thinking:

Do you have a reference for that statement Tilopa?

There are many rules in the various sets of vows for not overstating our level of attainment, not to state some classes of attainments to some classes of people, and because of these rules people shy away from even saying they are a Bodhisattva, much less what bhumi, but I cannot think of any reason not to call people who have taken the Bodhisattva vows and hold them clean Bodhisattvas. I think if you hold Bodhisattva vows,.. that's it, you're a Bodhisattva of some level or another, especially considering to hold the Bodhisattva vows clean you have to hold to Bodhicitta, it's a rule.


I can't find an online reference to link here but a detailed explanation of the bodhisattva path is contained in a text known as Sa.Lam or Grounds and Paths which is based on the the Perfection of Wisdom Sutra and Maitreya’s text Abhisamayalamkara.

According to the teachings I received it is more like we are imitation bodhisattvas in that we recognize the value of the mahayana dharma and have a sincere aspiration to practise it based on a genuine concern for the welfare of others arising from some level of love and compassion. On this basis we take the bodhisattva vows which strengthens our relationship with the path but doesn't turn us into actual bodhisattvas although we might legitimately claim to be aspiring bodhisattvas at this point.

Eventually, through repeated training in either of the two methods of cultivating bodhicitta and with single pointed concentration as a support we generate unfabricated bodhicitta and enter the first of the five mahayana paths known as the path of accumulation. This is a considerable attainment and someone who has reached this level is considered to be very evolved - a real bodhisattva. Keep in mind that single pointed concentration itself is quite special and brings with it clairvoyance and other psychic powers.

Maybe other schools have a different explanation but this is the way I understand it based on teachings I have received from various Lamas.
Last edited by Tilopa on Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Responsability of the Bodhisattva.

Postby spiritnoname » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:52 am

Hmm, maybe,.. What you say is based on something you've heard, what I say is based on assumption,.. have to lean to your view, at least it is based on something.
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Re: Responsability of the Bodhisattva.

Postby ground » Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:37 am

Tilopa wrote:According to the teachings I received it is more like we are imitation bodhisattvas in that we recognize the value of the mahayana dharma and have a sincere aspiration to practise it based on a genuine concern for the welfare of others arising from some level of love and compassion. On this basis we take the bodhisattva vows which strengthens our relationship with the path but doesn't turn us into actual bodhisattvas although we might legitimately claim to be aspiring bodhisattvas at this point.


This differentiation does not seem to be supported by Shantideva.

Shantideva wrote:The moment helpless beings, bound in the prison of cyclic existence,
Develop this spirit of enlightenment
They are called "children of the sugatas"

spirit of enlightenment = bodhicitta
"children of the sugatas" = bodhisattvas

So the mere development of "aspiration to practise it based on a genuine concern for the welfare of others" (your words) qualifies a bodhisattva according to this quotation.

So althought there is a differentiation between aspiring and engaged bodhicitta there is no differentiation between "aspiring" and "actual" bodhisattvas. And there is no such thing like "imitation bodhisattvas" because "imitation bodhisattvas" would be practicing non-Mahayana. Why? Because the defining characteristic of Mahayana (which is "the path of a bodhisattva") is "aspiring bodhicitta". "engaged bodhicitta" does not replace "aspiring bodhicitta" but is still pervaded and supported by "aspiring bodhicitta". "Aspiring bodhicitta" is what makes the difference with reference to non-Mahayana from the early beginning to the final end of the "path of a bodhisattva". If one loses "aspiring bodhicitta" one does not practice Mahayana even if one may be following a Mahayana teacher and listen to Mahayana teachings.


kind regards
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Re: Responsability of the Bodhisattva.

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:21 am

TMingyur wrote:
Tilopa wrote:According to the teachings I received it is more like we are imitation bodhisattvas in that we recognize the value of the mahayana dharma and have a sincere aspiration to practise it based on a genuine concern for the welfare of others arising from some level of love and compassion. On this basis we take the bodhisattva vows which strengthens our relationship with the path but doesn't turn us into actual bodhisattvas although we might legitimately claim to be aspiring bodhisattvas at this point.


This differentiation does not seem to be supported by Shantideva.

Shantideva wrote:The moment helpless beings, bound in the prison of cyclic existence,
Develop this spirit of enlightenment
They are called "children of the sugatas"

spirit of enlightenment = bodhicitta
"children of the sugatas" = bodhisattvas

So the mere development of "aspiration to practise it based on a genuine concern for the welfare of others" (your words) qualifies a bodhisattva according to this quotation.


Indeed. In the Mahayana, generating and nurturing the spirit of enlightenment makes one a bodhisattva, and nonconceptual cognition of emptiness makes one an arya bodhisattva.
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Re: Responsability of the Bodhisattva.

Postby ground » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:57 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Indeed. In the Mahayana, generating and nurturing the spirit of enlightenment makes one a bodhisattva, and nonconceptual cognition of emptiness makes one an arya bodhisattva.


Yes. And in the same way the conceptual spirit of enlightenment entails a non-conceptual "state" which may likewise be called "spirit of enlightenment" so does the conceptual analytical probing a specific particular phenomenon entail a non-conceptual state of "knowing" the emptiness of the variety of phenomena.

Now the question arises whether a non-conceptual state "spirit of enlightenment" and a non-conceptual state of "'knowing' the emptiness of the variety of phenomena" can pervade consciousness (or mind) simultaneously. Because if this is not possible then the consequence would be that with the achievement of a non-conceptual state of "'knowing' the emptiness of the variety of phenomena" the subject would lapse from the Mahayana and an arya bodhisattva wouldn't differ from a non-Mahayana arya.
Or - if the subject would not lapse from the Mahayana - the non-conceptual state "spirit of enlightenment" and the non-conceptual state of "'knowing' the emptiness of the variety of phenomena" would necessarily have to be the same "state of affairs" but as such be different from the "state" achieved on non-Mahayana paths.


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Re: Responsability of the Bodhisattva.

Postby Tilopa » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:13 am

TMingyur wrote:
This differentiation does not seem to be supported by Shantideva.

Shantideva wrote:The moment helpless beings, bound in the prison of cyclic existence,
Develop this spirit of enlightenment
They are called "children of the sugatas"

spirit of enlightenment = bodhicitta
"children of the sugatas" = bodhisattvas

So the mere development of "aspiration to practise it based on a genuine concern for the welfare of others" (your words) qualifies a bodhisattva according to this quotation.


This is your interpretation and doesn't accord with what is taught in the Gelug system but as I said maybe other schools have a different presentation. The spirit of enlightenment referred to by Shantideva is non-fabricated bodhicitta.

So althought there is a differentiation between aspiring and engaged bodhicitta there is no differentiation between "aspiring" and "actual" bodhisattvas.


Yes there is. We only become an actual mahayanist with the generation of uncontrived bodhicitta at which point we become a bodhisattva and enter the mahayana path for the first time. Until then we may have an aspiration to become a bodhisattva and emulate the deeds of a bodhisattva but it's not the same as being a genuine bodhisattva. At least this is how it's taught in the Gelug system.

Here is something I found from one well known Gelug teacher which might be helpful.

Entering the bodhisattva path

Retreatant:
And my other question is: you hear that once you’ve developed—had that instant of bodhicitta—that you become a bodhisattva which has the implication that having that realization of bodhicitta means that now it’s lasting to some extent.

Thubten Chodron:
Wait a minute, who said you have an instant of bodhicitta and that’s the realization of bodhicitta?

Retreatant:
Well, maybe that’s a misunderstanding.

Ven. Chodron:
Yes it is!

Retreatant:
…but somehow you generate bodhicitta—that’s when you enter the door way of becoming a bodhisattva.

Ven. Chodron:
Yes. Yes. It’s not just generating bodhicitta. We generate bodhicitta every morning, don’t we?

Retreatant:
We really generate bodhicitta?

Ven. Chodron
There’s fabricated bodhicitta and there’s unfabricated bodhicitta. We generate fabricated bodhicitta all the time. Even unfabricated bodhicitta: the first time you get it, does that mean it’s never going to go away? No. You have to make that very, very strong. Okay? So it’s not just one instant of unfabricated bodhicitta and now you’re good to go forever.

Retreatant:
So when do you become a bodhisattva?

Ven. Chodron:
When you enter the path of accumulation, when you have a stable bodhicitta. That doesn’t mean that you can never loose it. On the small path of accumulation it’s still possible to loose it. But to enter the path of accumulation, the first of the bodhisattva path, you have to have bodhicitta that’s stable enough so that when you see sentient beings your reaction to them is, “I want to attain enlightenment in order to benefit them.” So your mind is very well drenched in that and you don’t have to spend hours cultivating it. It’s like unfabricated.

That’s good to know because, for example, when His Holiness does the ceremony of aspiring bodhicitta with us and we all generate bodhicitta in His Holiness’s presence, does that mean that we all become bodhisattvas? No. As soon as we’re out the door, it’s like, you know, “Get out of my way!” But it’s good that we did that, isn’t it? It put a good imprint on our mind. That’s why we generate bodhicitta again and again before each of our meditation sessions, every time when we wake up in the morning, before every activity. We try again and again to familiarize our mind with that.


And there is no such thing like "imitation bodhisattvas" because "imitation bodhisattvas" would be practicing non-Mahayana


We practice mahayana in order to become a bodhisattva but until we enter the path of accumulation our practice is supported by fabricated bodhicitta not spontaneous bodhicitta and so we are imitation bodhisattvas not actual bodhisattvas.
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Re: Responsability of the Bodhisattva.

Postby ground » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:41 am

Tilopa wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
This differentiation does not seem to be supported by Shantideva.

Shantideva wrote:The moment helpless beings, bound in the prison of cyclic existence,
Develop this spirit of enlightenment
They are called "children of the sugatas"

spirit of enlightenment = bodhicitta
"children of the sugatas" = bodhisattvas

So the mere development of "aspiration to practise it based on a genuine concern for the welfare of others" (your words) qualifies a bodhisattva according to this quotation.


This is your interpretation and doesn't accord with what is taught in the Gelug system but as I said maybe other schools have a different presentation.


It is based on and taken from the Lamrim chenmo. If "Gelug system" is different then I prefer the "Lamrim Chenmo system", yes.


The crucial point which Lama Tsongkhapa stresses so much:
If Bodhicitta then Mahayana
If Bodhicitta then Bodhisattva
If Bodhisattva then Mahayana


There is nothing in between. But once a bodhisattva then there are stages of bodhisattva.

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Re: Responsability of the Bodhisattva.

Postby Individual » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:32 pm

swampflower wrote:
Individual wrote:
muni wrote:Whereas the "Free Tibet" crowd could be spending their money on sleeping bags for the homeless and making soup, they spend their money on stupid ****ing statues and prayer flags, and others like them stand on the street corner handing out pamphlets on vegetarianism while people elsewhere starve to death.



I may not be a Bodhisattva, but I do send money to many charities. I also support Fee Tibet!
I also spend some of my money on "stupid ****ing statues and prayer flags".
Man, some people are just plain RUDE!
It is none of your ******* business where I spend my money or what charity I support.
( ******* means everloving: Haha)
Get off the :soapbox:

:rolling:

:good:
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Re: Responsibility of the Bodhisattva.

Postby Heruka » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:02 am

many vow takers,
few vow keepers.
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Re: Responsibility of the Bodhisattva.

Postby Individual » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:34 pm

Heruka wrote:many vow takers,
few vow keepers.

If that's the case, then it's a bad vow.
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Re: Responsibility of the Bodhisattva.

Postby Tilopa » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:41 pm

Individual wrote:
Heruka wrote:many vow takers,
few vow keepers.

If that's the case, then it's a bad vow.


Why?
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Re: Responsibility of the Bodhisattva.

Postby Individual » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:51 pm

Tilopa wrote:
Individual wrote:
Heruka wrote:many vow takers,
few vow keepers.

If that's the case, then it's a bad vow.


Why?

Because a good vow helps people while a bad vow doesn't.

It's like the student-teacher relationship. A good teacher teaches, a good student learns. If there is a failure in the process, fault can be placed at any point. Some people say, "The teacher is a bad teacher. He doesn't understand the student's specific needs," faulting the teacher for not having clever enough speech tailored in such a way that it automatically inspires practice. Other people say, "The student is a bad student," faulting the student for lacking virtue, like not listening or listening but not practicing. But in reality, it is just cause & effect, and there are no persons for whom blame can be attributed to. The student could and should improve, and so should the teacher. The vow itself is like the teacher and the vow-makers are like its students. Blame can be placed either way, but in reality there are no vows and vow-makers.
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