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Path and Nibbana - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Path and Nibbana

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:41 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: Path and Nibbana

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tiltbillings
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Re: Path and Nibbana

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Alex123
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby Alex123 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:51 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby Alex123 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:52 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:17 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: Path and Nibbana

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Alex123
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby Alex123 » Sun May 13, 2012 11:17 pm

If Nibbāna never arises, always is, uncreated, unconditioned, etc - then how can practice which is conditioned create it?
One proposed solution is to use this simile: When you travel from one city to another city, you do not create destination. You only arrive
there. So the path does not created Nibbāna, it brings you there. Here is the limitation of this example: Nibbāna is not a place, so the spatial
simile is not totally valid. There is no person who travels from saṃsāra to Nibbāna. Nibbāna is more of "experience" (or lack of certain kind of experience) than a place where "one" arrives. What was not experienced before, and now is experienced for the first time , for all intents and purposes is as if it arises. Un-experienced Nibbāna would become experienced now. Can un-experienced experience really exist? No. But Nibbāna does.

It is possible to say that what arises is Awakening (maggaphala).
Next question: What would be the relationship between Nibbāna and Awakening(maggaphala) experiencing Nibbāna for the first time?
If they are same then it doesn't solve the original question. If they are different than how do they relate and how Nibbāna is attained?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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polarbear101
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby polarbear101 » Mon May 14, 2012 12:55 am

A couple of problems here, first Nibbana is not a place, supposedly it is the lack of certain processes, here is an article from Thanissaro...

http://mettarefuge.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... t-a-place/

here is the problem though, Thanissaro describes the experience of nibbana as consciousness that doesn't land but consciousness only arises due to causes and conditions and always takes an object in order to arise, for example...

When it is realized that consciousness results only from conditioning causes and that it soon disappears, it becomes obvious that there is no such thing as a permanently enduring self. For example, eye-consciousness arises only when there is eye and object of sight. Likewise, ear consciousness can arise only when there are ear and sound; smell-consciousness can only arise when there are nose and odor; tongue-consciousness can arise only when there are tongue and taste; body-consciousness only when there are body and tactile object; and mental consciousness, only when there are mind and mental object. When these conditional causes for their respective results are known, the notion of a permanent entity, nivāsī attā clinging, is discarded.
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/mahasi-anat/anat04.htm

There seems to some contradiction here, which seems to indicate possible contradiction in the suttas or confusion on my part, for example

"Where there is no passion for the nutriment of consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or increase. Where consciousness does not land or increase, there is no alighting of name-&-form. Where there is no alighting of name-&-form, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair.

"Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?"

"On the western wall, lord."

"And if there is no western wall, where does it land?"

"On the ground, lord."

"And if there is no ground, where does it land?"

"On the water, lord."

"And if there is no water, where does it land?"

"It does not land, lord."

"In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food... contact... intellectual intention... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or increase. Where consciousness does not land or increase, there is no alighting of name-&-form. Where there is no alighting of name-&-form, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The sutta above either that consciousness can exist without an object or the metaphor is simply poorly formulated in the sense that the correct answer is that there would be no consciousness to land anywhere not that there would be nowhere for consciousness to land

and then this sutta

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

Thanissaro claims that the consciousness experiencing nibbana can't be associated with the five aggregates but that sounds like a cop out to me. Where does it come from then, it makes no sense to me.

If someone could clarify this for me it would be greatly appreciated.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Alex123
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby Alex123 » Mon May 14, 2012 1:10 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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polarbear101
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby polarbear101 » Mon May 14, 2012 1:20 am

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Alex123
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby Alex123 » Mon May 14, 2012 1:28 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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polarbear101
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby polarbear101 » Mon May 14, 2012 3:55 am

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 14, 2012 4:04 am


vinasp
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby vinasp » Mon May 14, 2012 1:38 pm

Hi everyone,

Some have said: "nibbana is not a place ..."

But in Ud 8.1 nibbana is said to be "that sphere" (tadaayatanam).

The Buddha seems to accept that some can be reborn - after death - as a deva in any of the four formless spheres. They even give the very long lifetimes of these beings.

All that is needed is to master the corresponding formless absorption. But what about the final state in this sequence - the cessation of perception and feeling? This does not seem to correspond to any of the planes which make up the cosmos.

Could some monks have thought that this state is nibbana, that it was beyond the cosmos? That they could arise there after death having escaped samsara or the cycle of birth and death? An eternal, blissful existence?

Of course, this is not the true aim of the teachings. But the teachings are a contradiction. If they say that these realms are just imagination and do not really exist - then how could they teach rebirth?

Regards, Vincent.

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Alex123
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby Alex123 » Mon May 14, 2012 6:28 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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reflection
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby reflection » Mon May 14, 2012 9:02 pm

This may be of interest:
http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/book/1788/

I did not read it through (and probably never will, considering my interest in reading :tongue:), but as far as I've skipped through it, it seems to mainly quote suttas and teachers, leaving the specific interpretation to the reader. Which is nice, I think.


Bye and metta!
:anjali:

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polarbear101
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby polarbear101 » Mon May 14, 2012 9:16 pm

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:19 am

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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equilibrium
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Re: Path and Nibbana

Postby equilibrium » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:28 am

Time does not exist, you don't need to touch Nibbana to realize it.....For anything to exist it must depend on something else!
So how can "Time" exist on this planet called Earth?

The 6 sense spheres are all empty.....what you sense cannot be real.....it is real because you "believe" it is real.


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