Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:46 am

Malcolm wrote:
In order to demonstrate that these three or four are not universal amongst so called "Buddhists".

But you just established that they are:
anicca=impermanence
dukkha=suffering
anatta=no self

PadmaVonSamba wrote:Then tell me, by what cognitive means is the arhat aware that he is an arhat?

Malcolm wrote: His mind, what else? Surely you are not going to now suggest that arhats lack the five aggregates?

And now, you have just demonstrated the fourth=The true nature of the mind is free from suffering.

These four are common to all schools of Buddhism.

Again, Thank You!
But the point is,
none of these details make any difference to a non-buddhist.
That's the topic.
.
.
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Malcolm » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:55 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
In order to demonstrate that these three or four are not universal amongst so called "Buddhists".

But you just established that they are:
anicca=impermanence
dukkha=suffering
anatta=no self



You are apparently not listening very well. I never stated once that these were shared amongst all Buddhist schools.

In fact, Pudgalavadins, a Buddhist school, assert that there is indeed a real self that experiences rebirth. They were once the most populous school in all India. They do not accept the third "seal" above.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Karma Dorje » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:02 am

Personally, when asked I just say I am a Hindu which is true and most people seem to relate easily to it or ask me if I really worship monkeys and elephants.

It has the added benefit of keeping most Buddhists from talking to me.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Malcolm » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:15 am

Karma Dorje wrote:Personally, when asked I just say I am a Hindu which is true....


Image
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:34 am

Karma Dorje wrote:Personally, when asked I just say I am a Hindu which is true and most people seem to relate easily to it or ask me if I really worship monkeys and elephants.

It has the added benefit of keeping most Buddhists from talking to me.

I'll talk to you. What kind of Hindu are you?
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby tomamundsen » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:04 am

ijaceebo wrote:
Malcolm wrote:


That works if you are a Theravadin or Mahāyāni, it does not work so well if you are a Dzogchenpa.


Hi there everyone! I'm new here and just learning. Out of genuine curiosity and not doubt, what ways would the contents of that link differ from Dzogchen? I know nothing about Dzogchen so I would be very interested to know. Thank you. :namaste:

You should start a new thread. This is a topic worthy of its own discussion.
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:01 am

Malcolm wrote:
You are apparently not listening very well. I never stated once that these were shared amongst all Buddhist schools.
In fact, Pudgalavadins, a Buddhist school, assert that there is indeed a real self that experiences rebirth. They were once the most populous school in all India. They do not accept the third "seal" above.


And where are the Pudgalavadins today?

What you said was,
There is in fact no true standard set of Buddhist doctrines
that universally apply to all instances of what we call Buddhism

And then you showed that there indeed are some.

We are disagreeing because I say these are shared amongst all Buddhist schools,
and everything you have offered to refute my claim
actually validates my assertion, but not yours.

Apparently the Pudgalavadins' argument didn't hold up either.

As far as listening goes, you are right.
I am reading text on a computer screen...I can't actually hear you at all.
.
.
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Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Malcolm » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:16 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Apparently the Pudgalavadins' argument didn't hold up either.
.


The fact that Pudgalavadins asserted a self is sufficient to demolish your claim that all buddhist schools adhered to the three or four seals, and thus renders your claim that theses are universal tenets in buddhism invalid.

Sorry, this is just a fact. You would do well to study a bit more Buddhist history . The fact that this school was long lived is born out by the fact that they were subject to polemical refutations from the time of Asoka until buddhism perished in India. That their schools did mot survive owes everything to the destruction buddhism in India and nothing to succesful refutation of their positions by opposing buddhist schools. This is simply a fact.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby plwk » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:46 am

Personally, when asked I just say I am a Hindu which is true and most people seem to relate easily to it or ask me if I really worship monkeys and elephants.
I am a cat worshipping Buddhist. Daily offerings and patting propitiations to them are obligatory :mrgreen:
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:51 am

Personally, when asked I just say I am a Hindu which is true....


Could I get away with this if I wore a saffron instead of maroon shemthab?

J/K
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby plwk » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:49 am

Personally, when asked I just say I am a Hindu which is true....


Could I get away with this if I wore a saffron instead of maroon shemthab?
Why not lol? Perhaps a start like this and after a decade or so with massive followers like this Incidently, the latter pic is my dear Vaishnava friend's guru, the late Jagadguru Kripalu Maharaj who manifested his journey back to Vaikunta just last month. He has had a phenomenal and colourful life and career, like many Indian gurus..
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:34 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:


That works if you are a Theravadin or Mahāyāni, it does not work so well if you are a Dzogchenpa.

Damn those Dzogchenpas! Always making trouble!

:smile:
Actually, the majority of Dzogchenpa practice as (Bon and) Buddhists within traditional (Bon and ) Buddhist lineages. The view that Dzogchen practice is somehow at odds with Buddhism is actually a view held by an extremely small minority of, mainly, western dzogchenpa within a certain organisation. Now, of course, it is true that one does not need to be a Buddhist to realise their true nature (Mahamudra, Dzogchen), by the same token though one does not need to be a dzogchenist in order to achieve liberation. If I remember correctly, the crux of the matter is that ALL reality is merely the play of ones essential nature. Everything is Mahamudra/Dzogchen.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:43 am

I don't see anybody denying that all Buddhist agree on the validity of dependent origination, so now I will throw out some other generic commonalities:

The Buddha was enlightened.
Enlightenment is the only true release from samsara.
Refuge.
Ad nauseum...
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, this is just a fact. You would do well to study a bit more Buddhist history . The fact that this school was long lived is born out by the fact that they were subject to polemical refutations from the time of Asoka until buddhism perished in India. That their schools did mot survive owes everything to the destruction buddhism in India and nothing to succesful refutation of their positions by opposing buddhist schools. This is simply a fact.


Your claim is essentially that there is no common denominator,
nothing that all "buddhisms" share in common.

I listed four,
You say that one of those is not common to all schools.
That still leaves three.
I hope you never get a flat tire, or you will have to buy a whole new car!

The fact that a school referred to as Pudgalavadins existed
and asserted some type of existent 'self',
even though that is inconsistent with the doctrine of anatta,
regardless of what brought on their demise,
it has absolutely nothing to to with this discussion.
A person can still say they practice or follow buddhism
and refer specifically to some doctrines
that are regarded as the teachings of the Buddha,
and that are specific to the Buddhadharma,
that are shared among all schools
distinguishing "Buddhism" from other religions or philosophies.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby duckfiasco » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:07 pm

All of that aside, to me the crux of the matter is that even though answering "yes" will undoubtedly lead them to conclusions or an idea of Buddhism that is inaccurate, it's more accurate than answering "no".
Like I said, many people have no clue about the Three or Four Seals and think Buddhism is Christianity with different trappings, that the Buddha is our Jesus-like savior, or that the Buddha is just a fat version of God with funny hair, etc.
But if you say "no," you cut off any possibility that they'll try to become better informed because A.) you are no longer a source of information, and B.) it stops that line of thinking so Buddhism likely drops from their mind.

Is it really so complicated? :rolleye:

Even if someone confronts you angrily, looking for a fight, "are you one of those damn Buddhists?" then you can still address the immediate matter of their suffering without having to immediately deny the precious gift of the Dharma.
I'm not sure anything good comes from falsehood in the majority of cases.
Last edited by duckfiasco on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Except that it refuses to make preferences;
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It reveals itself fully and without disguise.
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Malcolm » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:09 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
The fact that a school referred to as Pudgalavadins existed
and asserted some type of existent 'self',
even though that is inconsistent with the doctrine of anatta,
regardless of what brought on their demise,
it has absolutely nothing to to with this discussion.

.



It has everything to do with this discussion.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:22 pm

Malcolm wrote: It has everything to do with this discussion.


So, somebody asks you if you are a Buddhist,
you are going to answer,
"Do you mean a Pudgalavadin, specifically, or one of the other kind?"
:rolling:
.
.
.
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:22 pm

You could say the same about any religion, any ideology practically. There is a ton of individual variation and what counts as the Official Version of whatever you practice changes with the times. Look at Gnostic or Kabbalistic ideas (ontological, soteriological..whatever) compared to some of their mainstream counterparts, they are farther apart within their own traditions than with other traditions when layed side by side.

So identifying as a Buddhist or not probably just depends on whether or not anything useful can come out of it, I imagine. So if someone is coming to me interesting in learning about Buddhism, wanting resources, or to know personal experiences..then identifying as a Buddhist won't bother me, or them - providing my extremely limited set of experiences or understanding can even be useful.

However, if someone comes to my house, sees my altar and asks a bunch of skeptical questions, makes some snide statements (which has happened with a family member, yay) it's probably not a great time to emphasize any sort of identity at all, as it will undoubtedly just be used as ammo...especially for the "that's not very Buddhist" type of attack someone mentioned earlier.

Basically to me it's simple, if it will scare off or incite someone, there is no need whatsoever to identify as one, if a person is asking about one's experience etc. as a practicing Buddhist, then they likely already see you that way, and there's no harm in acknowledging the categorization.
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is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:28 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:However, if someone comes to my house, sees my altar and asks a bunch of skeptical questions, makes some snide statements (which has happened with a family member, yay) it's probably not a great time to emphasize any sort of identity at all, as it will undoubtedly just be used as ammo...especially for the "that's not very Buddhist" type of attack someone mentioned earlier.


About a year ago, some workers came to my house to do some repairs,
and one of them noticed my Tibetan style 'shrine' and said,
"Are you a Buddhist? I know a Vietnamese guy who is a Buddhist.
He feeds his Buddha a plate of food every day.
What do you feed your Buddha?"

I was sort of at a loss for an answer.

"ummmm...water, I guess." (bowls with water are an acceptable symbolic offering on Tibetan shrines)

But to this day, I have always thought the question,
"what do you feed your Buddha"
to be very profound.
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.
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Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:33 pm

Well, nobody ever asks me if I'm a Buddhist, but this thread is beginning to make me think I would say no if someone did. :roll:
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