Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:11 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 93 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Posts: 2845
Malcolm wrote:

In order to demonstrate that these three or four are not universal amongst so called "Buddhists".

But you just established that they are:
anicca=impermanence
dukkha=suffering
anatta=no self

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Then tell me, by what cognitive means is the arhat aware that he is an arhat?

Malcolm wrote:
His mind, what else? Surely you are not going to now suggest that arhats lack the five aggregates?

And now, you have just demonstrated the fourth=The true nature of the mind is free from suffering.

These four are common to all schools of Buddhism.

Again, Thank You!
But the point is,
none of these details make any difference to a non-buddhist.
That's the topic.
.
.
.

_________________
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

In order to demonstrate that these three or four are not universal amongst so called "Buddhists".

But you just established that they are:
anicca=impermanence
dukkha=suffering
anatta=no self



You are apparently not listening very well. I never stated once that these were shared amongst all Buddhist schools.

In fact, Pudgalavadins, a Buddhist school, assert that there is indeed a real self that experiences rebirth. They were once the most populous school in all India. They do not accept the third "seal" above.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm
Posts: 972
Personally, when asked I just say I am a Hindu which is true and most people seem to relate easily to it or ask me if I really worship monkeys and elephants.

It has the added benefit of keeping most Buddhists from talking to me.

_________________
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
~Arthur Carlson


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
Karma Dorje wrote:
Personally, when asked I just say I am a Hindu which is true....


Image

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Posts: 2295
Karma Dorje wrote:
Personally, when asked I just say I am a Hindu which is true and most people seem to relate easily to it or ask me if I really worship monkeys and elephants.

It has the added benefit of keeping most Buddhists from talking to me.

I'll talk to you. What kind of Hindu are you?

_________________
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:50 am
Posts: 546
Location: Los Angeles, CA
ijaceebo wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:


That works if you are a Theravadin or Mahāyāni, it does not work so well if you are a Dzogchenpa.


Hi there everyone! I'm new here and just learning. Out of genuine curiosity and not doubt, what ways would the contents of that link differ from Dzogchen? I know nothing about Dzogchen so I would be very interested to know. Thank you. :namaste:

You should start a new thread. This is a topic worthy of its own discussion.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Posts: 2845
Malcolm wrote:

You are apparently not listening very well. I never stated once that these were shared amongst all Buddhist schools.
In fact, Pudgalavadins, a Buddhist school, assert that there is indeed a real self that experiences rebirth. They were once the most populous school in all India. They do not accept the third "seal" above.


And where are the Pudgalavadins today?

What you said was,
There is in fact no true standard set of Buddhist doctrines
that universally apply to all instances of what we call Buddhism

And then you showed that there indeed are some.

We are disagreeing because I say these are shared amongst all Buddhist schools,
and everything you have offered to refute my claim
actually validates my assertion, but not yours.

Apparently the Pudgalavadins' argument didn't hold up either.

As far as listening goes, you are right.
I am reading text on a computer screen...I can't actually hear you at all.
.
.
.

_________________
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
PadmaVonSamba wrote:

Apparently the Pudgalavadins' argument didn't hold up either.
.


The fact that Pudgalavadins asserted a self is sufficient to demolish your claim that all buddhist schools adhered to the three or four seals, and thus renders your claim that theses are universal tenets in buddhism invalid.

Sorry, this is just a fact. You would do well to study a bit more Buddhist history . The fact that this school was long lived is born out by the fact that they were subject to polemical refutations from the time of Asoka until buddhism perished in India. That their schools did mot survive owes everything to the destruction buddhism in India and nothing to succesful refutation of their positions by opposing buddhist schools. This is simply a fact.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:41 am
Posts: 2776
Quote:
Personally, when asked I just say I am a Hindu which is true and most people seem to relate easily to it or ask me if I really worship monkeys and elephants.
I am a cat worshipping Buddhist. Daily offerings and patting propitiations to them are obligatory :mrgreen:

_________________
TWTB BIES OCB DDM BWF


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Posts: 2327
Location: the Netherlands and India
Quote:
Personally, when asked I just say I am a Hindu which is true....


Could I get away with this if I wore a saffron instead of maroon shemthab?

J/K

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:41 am
Posts: 2776
Quote:
Quote:
Personally, when asked I just say I am a Hindu which is true....


Could I get away with this if I wore a saffron instead of maroon shemthab?
Why not lol? Perhaps a start like this and after a decade or so with massive followers like this Incidently, the latter pic is my dear Vaishnava friend's guru, the late Jagadguru Kripalu Maharaj who manifested his journey back to Vaikunta just last month. He has had a phenomenal and colourful life and career, like many Indian gurus..

_________________
TWTB BIES OCB DDM BWF


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:34 am 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:


That works if you are a Theravadin or Mahāyāni, it does not work so well if you are a Dzogchenpa.

Damn those Dzogchenpas! Always making trouble!

:smile:
Actually, the majority of Dzogchenpa practice as (Bon and) Buddhists within traditional (Bon and ) Buddhist lineages. The view that Dzogchen practice is somehow at odds with Buddhism is actually a view held by an extremely small minority of, mainly, western dzogchenpa within a certain organisation. Now, of course, it is true that one does not need to be a Buddhist to realise their true nature (Mahamudra, Dzogchen), by the same token though one does not need to be a dzogchenist in order to achieve liberation. If I remember correctly, the crux of the matter is that ALL reality is merely the play of ones essential nature. Everything is Mahamudra/Dzogchen.

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:43 am 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Posts: 10290
Location: Greece
I don't see anybody denying that all Buddhist agree on the validity of dependent origination, so now I will throw out some other generic commonalities:

The Buddha was enlightened.
Enlightenment is the only true release from samsara.
Refuge.
Ad nauseum...

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Posts: 2845
Malcolm wrote:

Sorry, this is just a fact. You would do well to study a bit more Buddhist history . The fact that this school was long lived is born out by the fact that they were subject to polemical refutations from the time of Asoka until buddhism perished in India. That their schools did mot survive owes everything to the destruction buddhism in India and nothing to succesful refutation of their positions by opposing buddhist schools. This is simply a fact.


Your claim is essentially that there is no common denominator,
nothing that all "buddhisms" share in common.

I listed four,
You say that one of those is not common to all schools.
That still leaves three.
I hope you never get a flat tire, or you will have to buy a whole new car!

The fact that a school referred to as Pudgalavadins existed
and asserted some type of existent 'self',
even though that is inconsistent with the doctrine of anatta,
regardless of what brought on their demise,
it has absolutely nothing to to with this discussion.
A person can still say they practice or follow buddhism
and refer specifically to some doctrines
that are regarded as the teachings of the Buddha,
and that are specific to the Buddhadharma,
that are shared among all schools
distinguishing "Buddhism" from other religions or philosophies.
.
.
.

_________________
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:11 am
Posts: 614
Location: Oregon
All of that aside, to me the crux of the matter is that even though answering "yes" will undoubtedly lead them to conclusions or an idea of Buddhism that is inaccurate, it's more accurate than answering "no".
Like I said, many people have no clue about the Three or Four Seals and think Buddhism is Christianity with different trappings, that the Buddha is our Jesus-like savior, or that the Buddha is just a fat version of God with funny hair, etc.
But if you say "no," you cut off any possibility that they'll try to become better informed because A.) you are no longer a source of information, and B.) it stops that line of thinking so Buddhism likely drops from their mind.

Is it really so complicated? :rolleye:

Even if someone confronts you angrily, looking for a fight, "are you one of those damn Buddhists?" then you can still address the immediate matter of their suffering without having to immediately deny the precious gift of the Dharma.
I'm not sure anything good comes from falsehood in the majority of cases.

_________________
Namu Amida Butsu


Last edited by duckfiasco on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
PadmaVonSamba wrote:

The fact that a school referred to as Pudgalavadins existed
and asserted some type of existent 'self',
even though that is inconsistent with the doctrine of anatta,
regardless of what brought on their demise,
it has absolutely nothing to to with this discussion.

.



It has everything to do with this discussion.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Posts: 2845
Malcolm wrote:
It has everything to do with this discussion.


So, somebody asks you if you are a Buddhist,
you are going to answer,
"Do you mean a Pudgalavadin, specifically, or one of the other kind?"
:rolling:
.
.
.

_________________
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:22 pm 
Online
Global Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Posts: 3038
Location: Olympia WA
You could say the same about any religion, any ideology practically. There is a ton of individual variation and what counts as the Official Version of whatever you practice changes with the times. Look at Gnostic or Kabbalistic ideas (ontological, soteriological..whatever) compared to some of their mainstream counterparts, they are farther apart within their own traditions than with other traditions when layed side by side.

So identifying as a Buddhist or not probably just depends on whether or not anything useful can come out of it, I imagine. So if someone is coming to me interesting in learning about Buddhism, wanting resources, or to know personal experiences..then identifying as a Buddhist won't bother me, or them - providing my extremely limited set of experiences or understanding can even be useful.

However, if someone comes to my house, sees my altar and asks a bunch of skeptical questions, makes some snide statements (which has happened with a family member, yay) it's probably not a great time to emphasize any sort of identity at all, as it will undoubtedly just be used as ammo...especially for the "that's not very Buddhist" type of attack someone mentioned earlier.

Basically to me it's simple, if it will scare off or incite someone, there is no need whatsoever to identify as one, if a person is asking about one's experience etc. as a practicing Buddhist, then they likely already see you that way, and there's no harm in acknowledging the categorization.

_________________
"We're chained to the world and we all gotta pull" -Tom Waits


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Posts: 2845
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
However, if someone comes to my house, sees my altar and asks a bunch of skeptical questions, makes some snide statements (which has happened with a family member, yay) it's probably not a great time to emphasize any sort of identity at all, as it will undoubtedly just be used as ammo...especially for the "that's not very Buddhist" type of attack someone mentioned earlier.


About a year ago, some workers came to my house to do some repairs,
and one of them noticed my Tibetan style 'shrine' and said,
"Are you a Buddhist? I know a Vietnamese guy who is a Buddhist.
He feeds his Buddha a plate of food every day.
What do you feed your Buddha?"

I was sort of at a loss for an answer.

"ummmm...water, I guess." (bowls with water are an acceptable symbolic offering on Tibetan shrines)

But to this day, I have always thought the question,
"what do you feed your Buddha"
to be very profound.
.
.
.

_________________
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Posts: 2295
Well, nobody ever asks me if I'm a Buddhist, but this thread is beginning to make me think I would say no if someone did. :roll:

_________________
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 93 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group