Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:39 pm

OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
They split as in "went their separate ways".

Dzogchen is based on Indian Antecedents which then were further developed in Tibet in complete absence of any influence from Zoroastrianism, which by the time period you are talking about. We do not have any record in Tibetan, Chinese or any other language of a major contact between Tibetans and Zoroastrians. Zoroastrians strictly do not proselytize. We do have some evidence of contact between Tibetans and Manichaeans in Khotan however.


To clarify, DC and Z share unique ideas. This is from some where. If not from Z itself, then from what came before and it was so old it was just like the basic world view, or there was some cross pollination with Persian ascetics who must have crossed paths with Shang Shung meditators. Somehow these ideas stayed in an area and guys messed with them. But guys in Mexico and Africa, not so much.



If you go to a local Hindu temple and do an astrological puja, the Brahmin priest may give you rainbow colored threads representing the 5 elements.

One blue thread, one red thread, one yellow thread, one green thread, one white thread twisted together.

This is standard Indian Dharma.


Yeah.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby OddiyanaIsIndia » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:41 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:If you go to a local Hindu temple and do an astrological puja, the Brahmin priest may give you rainbow colored threads representing the 5 elements.

One blue thread, one red thread, one yellow thread, one green thread, one white thread twisted together.

This is standard Indian Dharma.


Yeah.


ok good.

Then the association between colors and elements is Indian.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:46 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
tatpurusa wrote:
What seems to evade you is that Yoroastrianism and Avesta are not pre-vedic.
Zoroastrianism originates from about 1000 BC, Vedic culture is much older, though only in oral form originally.
Persians and Indo-Aryans were related folks, speaking similar languages (sanskrit has much resemblance with avestic Persian, Avestic language is practically understandable if someone has studied sanskrit), though Vedic sanskrit is from a much older layer than Avestic Persian)
They were both culturally and genetically related but probably adversarial tribes.
This is shown by the names of gods in Avesta : ahura, which corresponds to the asura, demons in Vedic cultures.
Demaons in Avesta on their side were called daevo (of the same origin as the word devil by the way), which corresponds to deva in Vedic culture.
Following the motto "my enemy's god is the devil, my enemy's devil is my god"

So even if you find some other parallels between Persian and Indian cultures, it does not mean that the origin was from Persia.


I don't believe you. Could be much older, by 10,000 years.


If you had studied Vedic sanskrit (as opposed to classical sanskrit) and Indo-European linguistics, you would recognize that the language of the Vedas represents a much older stratum than the language of Avesta.


That's interesting and plausible, but scholars are not in agreement. My actual theory is all religion is just a Ritualization of culture. Z and V come from PreVedic culture. I don't believe the names assoc with religion are really responsible for it. The pattern is for so called religious guys to fabricate holy docs and attribute them to someone famous who may not have lived or lived but didn't do all that was claimed. It's part of some kings sponsoring the creation of state religion to control culture and hence control the people. I might be high, but I'm not fantasizing.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:47 pm

OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:If you go to a local Hindu temple and do an astrological puja, the Brahmin priest may give you rainbow colored threads representing the 5 elements.

One blue thread, one red thread, one yellow thread, one green thread, one white thread twisted together.

This is standard Indian Dharma.


Yeah.


ok good.

Then the association between colors and elements is Indian.


Imported to Imdia before there was such a word.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:56 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:To clarify, DC and Z share unique ideas. This is from some where. If not from Z itself, then from what came before and it was so old it was just like the basic world view, or there was some cross pollination with Persian ascetics who must have crossed paths with Shang Shung meditators.


No. they really do not. Dzogchen is non-theistic. Dzogchen is not eternalist. Dzogchen uses the Indian scheme of the five elements, not the Zoroastrian scheme of seven elements which I posted to you.

I think you are tripping on this one.

Ok, over and out.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:To clarify, DC and Z share unique ideas. This is from some where. If not from Z itself, then from what came before and it was so old it was just like the basic world view, or there was some cross pollination with Persian ascetics who must have crossed paths with Shang Shung meditators.


No. they really do not. Dzogchen is non-theistic. Dzogchen is not eternalist. Dzogchen uses the Indian scheme of the five elements, not the Zoroastrian scheme of seven elements which I posted to you.

I think you are tripping on this one.

Ok, over and out.


All these schemes are fluid. DC can easily be mistaken for eternalistic. The nondual part is difficult for people to understand. Some Indians systems use seven colors. These correspondences are messed with to suit whoever. DC seems a Hegelian response to those Z dualistims.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:17 pm

There should be a face-slap icon for this forum. With a sandal.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:25 pm

padma norbu wrote:There should be a face-slap icon for this forum. With a sandal.


Use what seems like poison. Funny. I have real blood ties to these regions and I'm not terrified it's all BS. The Drokpa were told they really didn't come from Alexander so they just stopped saying that. History is fluid. Why believe it? It's better to think creatively and open oneself up to unearthing deep assumptions that should be exposed as BS.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:37 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
padma norbu wrote:There should be a face-slap icon for this forum. With a sandal.


Use what seems like poison. Funny. I have real blood ties to these regions and I'm not terrified it's all BS. The Drokpa were told they really didn't come from Alexander so they just stopped saying that. History is fluid. Why believe it? It's better to think creatively and open oneself up to unearthing deep assumptions that should be exposed as BS.


I'm not sure what this has to do with my comment, but I appreciate your taking the time to reply to me. I was just referring to this story: http://books.google.com/books?id=Bmrap_ ... e.&f=false
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby reddust » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:45 pm

Please keep exchanging information and links. I really enjoy this kind of thread :namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby smcj » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:29 am

padma norbu wrote:There should be a face-slap icon for this forum. With a sandal.

:good: :rolling:
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