It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).

It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

It's a sign! - just when I needed it most, I got a sign inexplicably from the universe or something!
12
35%
Magical thinking is stupid! - be logical & you won't find yourself in such desperate situations, clinging to such desperate nonsense.
22
65%
 
Total votes: 34

tatpurusa
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by tatpurusa »

porpoise wrote:
tatpurusa wrote:... be careful, porpoises are directly born from avidyā :sage: :ugeek:
No, they're born from mummy and daddy porpoises.. :tongue:
..as a direct result of avidyā .. :tongue:
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8881
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by Astus »

Magical thinking supposes unknown causal relations and/or an external intelligent force. It can serve as an explanation for not understood events, it provides a feeling of power. It is basically cheating oneself, accepting a lie for the sake of emotional comfort. Is it stupid to feel safe? Not at all. Can it generate positive mental states? Yes. It is not much different from conspiracy theories and paranoia.

Citing "interdependence" means very little. It does not mean in Buddhism that everything is connected to everything, and such. It is used to prove that all phenomena are composites without a substance. Although it is true that traditionally Buddhism accepts magic as a real thing, it has no explanation for it whatsoever, therefore it is nothing but accepting the ruling cultural beliefs, just as today many like to connect biochemical phenomena to meditation.

Magical thinking is also a sign of mental proliferation, the desire to explain everything. But that nobody can explain everything does not mean that simple concepts (e.g. God, karma, energy, UFO's) are the solution. They are not much better than children's stories.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Anders
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by Anders »

padma norbu wrote:
porpoise wrote:
AnShen wrote:I think the poll presents us with a false dichotomy.
Rationality often does.
Some things are signs, some things are not?
Maybe.

I indulge magical thinking now and then. Since I allowed myself this, I find I've become much more flexible in my thinking, open-minded and creative. Life is often richer with a bit of magic. Doesn't mean I take it literally though - But I play along with it now and then on the premise that it could be true. Whether it is or not, or turns out to be or not, isn't that relevant as the personal utility such thing might offer at that given time, even when it seems such magic is in fact very real.

I'm a big fan of rational empiricist thinking. And I tend to mislike magical thinking that is overly literal and fundamentalist. But the rational mind isn't, and shouldn't be, the only tangent for the human mind to play on.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
Anders
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by Anders »

Astus wrote:Magical thinking is also a sign of mental proliferation, the desire to explain everything. But that nobody can explain everything does not mean that simple concepts (e.g. God, karma, energy, UFO's) are the solution. They are not much better than children's stories.
let's be sure to understand the concept here: Magical thinking is basically any kind of concept that is not founded in some sort of empirical causal evidence. Belief in reincarnation, karma, purelands, mahasattvas, etc all fall under this umbrella. Hell, a lot of actual experiences of same could fall under the same umbrella barring some means of external verification.

We aren't limited to UFOs here. What Buddhism understands to be causal fails most criteria for non-magical thinking.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
User avatar
futerko
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:58 am

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by futerko »

Anders wrote:Magical thinking is basically any kind of concept that is not founded in some sort of empirical causal evidence.
In fact, rationalism is based precisely on the hypothesis that concepts and knowledge are gained independently of empirical sensory experience.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ratio ... mpiricism/
User avatar
padma norbu
Posts: 1999
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by padma norbu »

I believe in UFOs and aliens piloting them. There is way too much information coming from credible sources to think that's just silly kid stuff and paranoia nutbaggery.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8881
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by Astus »

Anders wrote:
Astus wrote:We aren't limited to UFOs here. What Buddhism understands to be causal fails most criteria for non-magical thinking.
Yes, where Buddhism says that one's intention and action modifies physical reality it is magical thinking. Only when karma is restricted to a personal mental continuum and its way of perception could we say that there is no "magic" involved. See this one here: Buddhist Magic.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Anders
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by Anders »

futerko wrote:
Anders wrote:Magical thinking is basically any kind of concept that is not founded in some sort of empirical causal evidence.
In fact, rationalism is based precisely on the hypothesis that concepts and knowledge are gained independently of empirical sensory experience.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ratio ... mpiricism/
"Rationalism" is a philosophical school yes. I think 'rational' thinking doesn't necessarily fall under the the umbrella of the 'pure reason' advocated by Descartes et al that Hume basically stopped dead in its tracks. in modern parlance, being 'rational' falls closer to the empiricist model - that is to say, one's thinking should be structured and properly sequenced, with proper basis for each step of the chain. Today, this implies empirical testing almost by default.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
User avatar
futerko
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:58 am

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by futerko »

Anders wrote:
futerko wrote:
Anders wrote:Magical thinking is basically any kind of concept that is not founded in some sort of empirical causal evidence.
In fact, rationalism is based precisely on the hypothesis that concepts and knowledge are gained independently of empirical sensory experience.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ratio ... mpiricism/
"Rationalism" is a philosophical school yes. I think 'rational' thinking doesn't necessarily fall under the the umbrella of the 'pure reason' advocated by Descartes et al that Hume basically stopped dead in its tracks. in modern parlance, being 'rational' falls closer to the empiricist model - that is to say, one's thinking should be structured and properly sequenced, with proper basis for each step of the chain. Today, this implies empirical testing almost by default.
For sure, modern science has tended towards a positivist/empiricist model, whereas I think Buddhist philosophy generally falls under the rationalist heading, and also in academic circles there is still a strong tradition critical of the lack of rationality found in the more observable results (i.e. cash) driven sciences.
As regards Hume basically stopping that tradition, try telling that to Kant and the German idealists. Maybe you are right regarding Anglo-Saxon thought, but in the Continental tradition Hume barely registers on the radar.
User avatar
padma norbu
Posts: 1999
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by padma norbu »

Meanwhile, on a popular UFO website forum, they are discussing the rationality of buddhism...
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread971382/pg1

( ^^^ I found that to be a very interesting thread, btw)


:shrug:
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
Martin007

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by Martin007 »

Anders wrote: I indulge magical thinking now and then. Since I allowed myself this, I find I've become much more flexible in my thinking, open-minded and creative. Life is often richer with a bit of magic.
Yes, I've found this to be the case too. I've also found that things are more interesting when one allows for possibilities - purely rational thinking can feel quite restrictive, and rather boring!
I received a Tara empowerment a long time ago and sometimes still chant the Tara mantra - it has an affect, and there is a feeling of connection. I sometimes wonder whether the connection is with something "internal" or something "external". When I'm in a skeptical mood I tend to dismiss the idea of an external connection, but at other times I reflect that it really doesn't matter.
User avatar
padma norbu
Posts: 1999
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by padma norbu »

porpoise wrote:
Anders wrote: I indulge magical thinking now and then. Since I allowed myself this, I find I've become much more flexible in my thinking, open-minded and creative. Life is often richer with a bit of magic.
Yes, I've found this to be the case too. I've also found that things are more interesting when one allows for possibilities - purely rational thinking can feel quite restrictive, and rather boring!
I received a Tara empowerment a long time ago and sometimes still chant the Tara mantra - it has an affect, and there is a feeling of connection. I sometimes wonder whether the connection is with something "internal" or something "external". When I'm in a skeptical mood I tend to dismiss the idea of an external connection, but at other times I reflect that it really doesn't matter.
Empowerment is a good topic for 'magical thinking.' Some transference occurs there which seems magical and people feel the need to 'refresh' them or get more. For me, personally, when I don't do Tara for a long time, for example, I have a feeling like "ah, it probably won't work now because I've waited too long..." and I feel like the magic connection is gone. But, then, if I do it, I still find it seems to work. If I do it regularly, however, it is as if by magic that I become somewhat 'immune' to the sadhana's charms and my mind wanders and I find it less transformative. So, there is a weird balance there which seems to hinge on my own personal magical thinking.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
Martin007

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by Martin007 »

padma norbu wrote:
porpoise wrote: I received a Tara empowerment a long time ago and sometimes still chant the Tara mantra - it has an affect, and there is a feeling of connection. I sometimes wonder whether the connection is with something "internal" or something "external". When I'm in a skeptical mood I tend to dismiss the idea of an external connection, but at other times I reflect that it really doesn't matter.
Empowerment is a good topic for 'magical thinking.' Some transference occurs there which seems magical and people feel the need to 'refresh' them or get more. For me, personally, when I don't do Tara for a long time, for example, I have a feeling like "ah, it probably won't work now because I've waited too long..." and I feel like the magic connection is gone. But, then, if I do it, I still find it seems to work. If I do it regularly, however, it is as if by magic that I become somewhat 'immune' to the sadhana's charms and my mind wanders and I find it less transformative. So, there is a weird balance there which seems to hinge on my own personal magical thinking.
Yes, I know what you mean. If I chant too much it feels like going through the motions, and somehow the connection is lost ( or maybe I'm just easily bored ;) ).
M.G.
Posts: 443
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by M.G. »

porpoise wrote:
Anders wrote: I indulge magical thinking now and then. Since I allowed myself this, I find I've become much more flexible in my thinking, open-minded and creative. Life is often richer with a bit of magic.
Yes, I've found this to be the case too. I've also found that things are more interesting when one allows for possibilities - purely rational thinking can feel quite restrictive, and rather boring!
I received a Tara empowerment a long time ago and sometimes still chant the Tara mantra - it has an affect, and there is a feeling of connection. I sometimes wonder whether the connection is with something "internal" or something "external". When I'm in a skeptical mood I tend to dismiss the idea of an external connection, but at other times I reflect that it really doesn't matter.
I'd be lying if I said that the Vajrayana's magical aspects weren't part of its appeal for me when I was young. I've left the tradition but certainly I remember some of that, like the effects of certain empowerments, seeming quite real. As long as one doesn't get hung up on that sort of thing I think its alright to take joy in it.
User avatar
Lindama
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:26 pm
Location: Forestville, CA usa

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by Lindama »

porpoise wrote:
Anders wrote: I indulge magical thinking now and then. Since I allowed myself this, I find I've become much more flexible in my thinking, open-minded and creative. Life is often richer with a bit of magic.
Yes, I've found this to be the case too. I've also found that things are more interesting when one allows for possibilities - purely rational thinking can feel quite restrictive, and rather boring!
I received a Tara empowerment a long time ago and sometimes still chant the Tara mantra - it has an affect, and there is a feeling of connection. I sometimes wonder whether the connection is with something "internal" or something "external". When I'm in a skeptical mood I tend to dismiss the idea of an external connection, but at other times I reflect that it really doesn't matter.
Glad to hear that thinking is becoming more flexible for you two... but, open minded and creative thinking is not the same thing as magical thinking.... far from it. Magical thinking carries a diff kind of fantasy. Be clear about the definition for magical thinking.
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

...open minded and creative thinking is not the same thing as magical thinking.... far from it. Magical thinking carries a diff kind of fantasy. Be clear about the definition for magical thinking.
To me superstitions are idea like, "If I break a mirror I will have 7 years bad luck" Synchronicity is when unrelated events happen that seem to have a thematic relationship. Magical thinking are ideas like, "If I have a positive attitude about money I'll become rich."

Those are just my ideas, not formal definitions. I think most of the discussion here has been about synchronicity, where unrelated events seem to signify something.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
User avatar
Lindama
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:26 pm
Location: Forestville, CA usa

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by Lindama »

smcj wrote:
...open minded and creative thinking is not the same thing as magical thinking.... far from it. Magical thinking carries a diff kind of fantasy. Be clear about the definition for magical thinking.
To me superstitions are idea like, "If I break a mirror I will have 7 years bad luck" Synchronicity is when unrelated events happen that seem to have a thematic relationship. Magical thinking are ideas like, "If I have a positive attitude about money I'll become rich."

Those are just my ideas, not formal definitions. I think most of the discussion here has been about synchronicity, where unrelated events seem to signify something.
there is a diff between magical thinking, illusion, synchronicity, and open minded and creative thinking. Superstition has nothing to do with this. And, synchronicity has everything to do with related events if you tune into it... it's impermaent and empty at the core even with synchronicity. Can't say much about open minded and creative thinking... except yes!

I forgot about being rich long ago.... forget the positive attitude...
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
Martin007

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by Martin007 »

Lindama wrote:
porpoise wrote:
Anders wrote: I indulge magical thinking now and then. Since I allowed myself this, I find I've become much more flexible in my thinking, open-minded and creative. Life is often richer with a bit of magic.
Yes, I've found this to be the case too. I've also found that things are more interesting when one allows for possibilities - purely rational thinking can feel quite restrictive, and rather boring!
I received a Tara empowerment a long time ago and sometimes still chant the Tara mantra - it has an affect, and there is a feeling of connection. I sometimes wonder whether the connection is with something "internal" or something "external". When I'm in a skeptical mood I tend to dismiss the idea of an external connection, but at other times I reflect that it really doesn't matter.
Glad to hear that thinking is becoming more flexible for you two... but, open minded and creative thinking is not the same thing as magical thinking.... far from it. Magical thinking carries a diff kind of fantasy. Be clear about the definition for magical thinking.
It depends on how one defines magical thinking, and I think there are nuances - unfortunately "magical thinking" is often used in a pejorative sense, which overlooks the possibility of skillful means. Does magical thinking include the idea of connecting with something external? Or is the distinction between believing that something mysterious is happening, as opposed to acknowledging the possibility?
User avatar
padma norbu
Posts: 1999
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by padma norbu »

Lindama wrote:I forgot about being rich long ago.... forget the positive attitude...
There's your problem right there! ;)

But, seriously, it sounds like you don't have a friend wearing big red shoes. I think the best cure for disbelief in magic of any sort is to go pick up a copy of the most terrifying grimoire you can find and and play around with it for a while. Comically, the one that works the most wonders (of a terrible sort) is the one which is roundly denounced as a fake even by serious occultists. I'll let you find that on your own. Just to be clear, though, I don't recommend this at all. I don't need the karma of connecting you to that stuff. I tried such things and it's probably the main reason I can take the Tibetan tradition seriously, since I am a skeptic by nature. Whenever I get that old skeptical feeling again, I just evaluate two ideas: do the Tibetans seem trustworth? Yes. Is there such thing as magic? Oh, most definitely. ...But, there is a distinction between magic and magical thinking of the mentally ill variety, and that's the distinction I was trying to make in the original poll question.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
tatpurusa
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Post by tatpurusa »

What most Western educated rationalists do not understand is that superstition and magic (or magical thinking) as practiced and utilized in tantra are not the same at all.
If someone regards these two as equivalent, loses the whole transformative potential of tantra.
In the best case then, it stays as some kind of phychotherapy, but not more. This is still quite powerful, but stays light-years behind the real potential of tantra.
Post Reply

Return to “Lounge”