"Do not befriend the foolish"

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"Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby kirtu » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:56 pm

From Hacket, "A Tibetan Verb Lexicon": བྱིས་པ་འགའ་ཡང་བཤེས་མིན་ཞེས། །དེ་བཞིན་གཤེགས་པ་རྣམས་ཀྱིས་གསུངས།: All the Tathagatas have said "Do not befriend the foolish".

Why does Hacket insert "have" to change གསུངས། to the perfect past? Is there actually a perfect past in Tibetan as opposed to just a past tense (perfect past being things that are actually completed and often a while ago)?

How does this get parsed out: བྱིས་པ་འགའ་ཡང་བཤེས་མིན་ཞེས།:

བྱིས་པ: foolish beings
འགའ་ཡང: at all, whatsoever
བཤེས: friend
མིན: not
ཞེས།: particle indicating quote

"Do not become friends at all with foolish beings" - ? Is བཤེས actually a verb? Otherwise what is the logic behind this construction?

Also how is བྱིས་པ pronounced? be pa (bay pa) ?

Thanks!

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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby Malcolm » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:23 pm

གསུངས་is both the imperative as well as the past. Tibetan does not have a "perfect past" It has only three conjugations of verbs, past/future; present/infinitive and imperative. Often the imperative is morphologically the same as the past tense.

So this line could the read both ways i.e. as a command or as past tense.

Generally, for bshes pa to be a verb, it usually requires the auxillary "byed pa". Here the auxiliary [bya/byed] is elided, but implied.

It could also be translated completely nominally: "Do not be a friend to immature [person] at all", etc.

Depending on dialect, བྱིས་པ is pronounced something like "ji/chi pa"; but in Amdo, it would be "Yay pa"




kirtu wrote:From Hacket, "A Tibetan Verb Lexicon": བྱིས་པ་འགའ་ཡང་བཤེས་མིན་ཞེས། །དེ་བཞིན་གཤེགས་པ་རྣམས་ཀྱིས་གསུངས།: All the Tathagatas have said "Do not befriend the foolish".

Why does Hacket insert "have" to change གསུངས། to the perfect past? Is there actually a perfect past in Tibetan as opposed to just a past tense (perfect past being things that are actually completed and often a while ago)?

How does this get parsed out: བྱིས་པ་འགའ་ཡང་བཤེས་མིན་ཞེས།:

བྱིས་པ: foolish beings
འགའ་ཡང: at all, whatsoever
བཤེས: friend
མིན: not
ཞེས།: particle indicating quote

"Do not become friends at all with foolish beings" - ? Is བཤེས actually a verb? Otherwise what is the logic behind this construction?

Also how is བྱིས་པ pronounced? be pa (bay pa) ?

Thanks!

Kirt
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm

Definitely good advice, however you translate it.
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby Lindama » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:54 pm

what is the context of this... could it also be talking about our own foolish parts? are we above it... and, what about family. Perhaps it is saying do not subscribe to foolishness in others.

old zen master talking to himself:
master, master... are you awake?
yes! yes!
don't be fooled by others
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby Malcolm » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:21 pm

Lindama wrote:what is the context of this... could it also be talking about our own foolish parts? are we above it... and, what about family. Perhaps it is saying do not subscribe to foolishness in others.

old zen master talking to himself:
master, master... are you awake?
yes! yes!
don't be fooled by others



It is from the Bodhicarya-avatara. It means do not be familiar with immature people.
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby reddust » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:40 pm

Immature emotionally or spiritually?
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby dharmagoat » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:54 pm

reddust wrote:Immature emotionally or spiritually?

Both. I think the two are inseparable.

Although I don't think it necessarily involves avoiding children in this case.
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby reddust » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:01 am

dharmagoat wrote:
reddust wrote:Immature emotionally or spiritually?

Both. I think the two are inseparable.

Although I don't think it necessarily involves avoiding children in this case.


I was thinking that, as well as young adults, or people who have been through trauma. I was thinking more like the fools that enjoy and manifest behavior that causes suffering for themselves and others :namaste:

Edit I have never enjoyed it when my behavior hurts me or others. I think most folk are like that, heck I feel bad when I win at cards or if I lose... :thinking:
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby dharmagoat » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:05 am

I think it really means "Don't waste your time hanging around with twits."
Last edited by dharmagoat on Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby reddust » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:06 am

dharmagoat wrote:I think it really means "Don't waste your time hanging out with twits".
But I am a twit hahaha :twothumbsup: you are so funny. My best friends brother used to call me a twit. I looked up the meaning: To taunt, ridicule, or tease, especially for embarrassing mistakes or faults. See Synonyms at ridicule.
n.
1. The act or an instance of twitting.
2. A reproach, gibe, or taunt.
3. Slang A foolishly annoying person

I guess I can be a twit sometimes, there are a lot of twits online.
Last edited by reddust on Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby dharmagoat » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:09 am

reddust wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:I think it really means "Don't waste your time hanging out with twits".
But I am a twit hahaha :twothumbsup: you are so funny

We are all twits here to some degree.

We are conversing on an internet forum, after all. :tongue:
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby reddust » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:12 am

dharmagoat wrote:
reddust wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:I think it really means "Don't waste your time hanging out with twits".
But I am a twit hahaha :twothumbsup: you are so funny

We are all twits here to some degree.

We are conversing on an internet forum, after all. :tongue:


I know, I just added a definition for twit to my last post. So many words are vague, many times I look them up even if I think I know what they mean. I seriously think we all can fall into this many times during the day.
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby kirtu » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:42 am

Malcolm wrote:Generally, for bshes pa to be a verb, it usually requires the auxillary "byed pa". Here the auxiliary [bya/byed] is elided, but implied.


How is it implied?

It could also be translated completely nominally: "Do not be a friend to immature [person] at all", etc.


How do you determine whether to translate it nominally or translate it with བྱིས་པ་ as a verb?


Depending on dialect, བྱིས་པ is pronounced something like "ji/chi pa"; but in Amdo, it would be "Yay pa"


But in the context of the sentence would it be "chi wa"?

So the whole sentence would be pronounced: བྱིས་པ་འགའ་ཡང་བཤེས་མིན་ཞེས། །དེ་བཞིན་གཤེགས་པ་རྣམས་ཀྱིས་གསུངས chi wa ga yang she min shi de zhin sheg pa nam gyi?

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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby Sherab » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:Depending on dialect, བྱིས་པ is pronounced something like "ji/chi pa"; but in Amdo, it would be "Yay pa"

In Kham it would be shi pa.
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby dharmagoat » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:11 pm

Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Depending on dialect, བྱིས་པ is pronounced something like "ji/chi pa"; but in Amdo, it would be "Yay pa"

In Kham it would be shi pa.

According to the audio tape that comes with Translating Buddhism from Tibetan, བྱིས་པ is pronounced (in the Lhasa dialect) as [cʰìwa] on three occasions, and as [cʰìpa] (the expected pronunciation) on two.
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby dharmagoat » Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:03 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Depending on dialect, བྱིས་པ is pronounced something like "ji/chi pa"; but in Amdo, it would be "Yay pa"

In Kham it would be shi pa.

According to the audio tape that comes with Translating Buddhism from Tibetan, བྱིས་པ is pronounced (in the Lhasa dialect) as [cʰìwa] on three occasions, and as [cʰìpa] (the expected pronunciation) on two.

For the record, the pronunciations I have given should actually be [ʨʰìwa] and [ʨʰìpa]. An important distinction.
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby kirtu » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:19 pm

dharmagoat wrote:For the record, the pronunciations I have given should actually be [ʨʰìwa] and [ʨʰìpa]. An important distinction.


The question then becomes how do we get from IPA notation to sounds coming out of our lips?

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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby Pero » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:42 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Depending on dialect, བྱིས་པ is pronounced something like "ji/chi pa"; but in Amdo, it would be "Yay pa"

In Kham it would be shi pa.

According to the audio tape that comes with Translating Buddhism from Tibetan, བྱིས་པ is pronounced (in the Lhasa dialect) as [cʰìwa] on three occasions, and as [cʰìpa] (the expected pronunciation) on two.

There's an audio tape? Did you have to order it separately or was it supposed to come with the book?
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby dharmagoat » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:11 pm

Pero wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:According to the audio tape that comes with Translating Buddhism from Tibetan, བྱིས་པ is pronounced (in the Lhasa dialect) as [cʰìwa] on three occasions, and as [cʰìpa] (the expected pronunciation) on two.

There's an audio tape? Did you have to order it separately or was it supposed to come with the book?

It can be bought separately: http://www.tibetanlanguage.org/bookstor ... gbooks.htm
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Postby In the bone yard » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:25 am

One problem is the dictionary we use to translate words.
Different dictionaries will have different words for a tibetan word.
Maybe a word that defines the meaning was not chosen properly.
We translate meaning, not words!

So what happens when a translator attempts to translate tantra when he doesn't have the realization (meaning) of what he's translating?
How is he or she supposed to translate the meaning?

Regardless of whether or not the passage is tantra or not, using the word 'friend' in the translation might not be a good word.
Maybe 'associate' is better.

"Do not associate with foolish beings."

The reason I say this is because the definition of the word 'friend' implies mutual trust between two or more people. Trust is built over a period of time.
But the words 'at all, whatsoever' are used to translate this passage.
This tells me 'associate' is a better word than friend. The definition of 'associate' is a better fit.

I'm not saying I have the correct translation, I'm trying to prove the point that we are translating the meaning, not the words.
The use of different words can have a totally different meaning. This goes all the way back to translations of the Bible!

We could be following teachings with the wrong meaning. So this is a big problem we have today, especially when it comes to tantra translations.
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