Desire

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Desire

Postby reddust » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:18 am

If one drops all desire, how does one move in the Desire Realm? I've had this question for a long time. I am still full of desire, I notice every little thing I do is powered by some kind of desire, that's why I am asking. I figured maybe Bodhisattvas move using subtle desires, like the pāramitās. Does a Buddha move? I'm going to sleep now, but I will be back. Questions of a sleepy mind probably silly, but I would like to see if anyone can answer me and citations would be nice too.

Picture of some reflections. The creek runs through our backyard and when I sit there watching the water run by usually that's when these kind of questions come up
Waterreflection1.jpg
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Re: Desire

Postby futerko » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:57 am

Interesting you posted that picture, because I would say that the nature of desire is reflective in several ways.

We tend to want things that others have (or want), and tend to want them because of how others will see us, making ourselves desirable to them in their eyes, in our eyes.

I think maybe this could go some way to answering your question, because if a we make offerings then the deities do not themselves need to desire, or move in and of themselves, in order for the reflexive nature of desire to make such practices effective for us.

In other words, the earth orbits the sun, the sun doesn't have to move, but we do.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Desire

Postby LastLegend » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:59 am

reddust wrote:If one drops all desire, how does one move in the Desire Realm? I've had this question for a long time. I am still full of desire, I notice every little thing I do is powered by some kind of desire, that's why I am asking. I figured maybe Bodhisattvas move using subtle desires, like the pāramitās. Does a Buddha move? I'm going to sleep now, but I will be back. Questions of a sleepy mind probably silly, but I would like to see if anyone can answer me and citations would be nice too.

Picture of some reflections. The creek runs through our backyard and when I sit there watching the water run by usually that's when these kind of questions come up
Waterreflection1.jpg


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Re: Desire

Postby oushi » Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:09 am

reddust wrote:If one drops all desire, how does one move in the Desire Realm? I've had this question for a long time.

It may be a great stopper, as dropping desires is volitional. We have the capacity to drop all desires, but we are not willing to do that, because of the consequences of desireless state. But it is good to know that desire is not the source of an action, but an attachment to it. Dropping desire does not stop activity. Like carrot on a stick that leads the donkey. Without the carrot, donkey will return to his normal activities and the one holding the stick will case to be.
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Re: Desire

Postby kirtu » Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:07 pm

reddust wrote:If one drops all desire, how does one move in the Desire Realm? I've had this question for a long time. I am still full of desire, I notice every little thing I do is powered by some kind of desire, that's why I am asking. I figured maybe Bodhisattvas move using subtle desires, like the pāramitās. Does a Buddha move?


By "move" I assume you mean "get reborn". If you remove desire then how is a Bodhisattva or a Buddha reborn/born reborn in the Desire Realm?

Sentient beings are compulsively reborn in the Desire Realm due to grasping and their karma, Bodhisattvas are reborn in the Desire Realm because they have not eliminated desire and have not purified their karma and because of their vows. Bodhisattvas may have reduced grapsing and eliminated many of the effects of karma (if they are on the bhumis) but have not yet purified all of it. So Bodhisattvas, and esp. non-Arya Bodhisattvas, have not fully purified their mindstream. Non-Arya Bodhisattvas are also compulsively reborn in the Desire Realm but usually in positive circumstances from a Dharmic POV (they may or may not be born into poverty or war and may be killed, etc. but they will connect with the teachings at least and will be able to help some beings)..

Buddhas are fully purified and fully enlightened. They are born in the Desire Realm solely as a result of their vows or desire to liberate all beings.

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Re: Desire

Postby greentara » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:48 pm

kirtu, "Bodhisattvas are reborn in the Desire Realm because they have not eliminated desire and have not purified their karma and because of their vows"
So if Bohisattvas have not eliminated desire and not purified their karma, how are they awake? With all this baggage how are they different from you and me?
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Re: Desire

Postby Tenzin Dorje » Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:06 pm

greentara wrote:kirtu, "Bodhisattvas are reborn in the Desire Realm because they have not eliminated desire and have not purified their karma and because of their vows"
So if Bohisattvas have not eliminated desire and not purified their karma, how are they awake? With all this baggage how are they different from you and me?


Good questions. I would tend to make something of kirtu's division into : (1) arya Bodhisattvas, and (2) ordinary ones.

Still, an ordinary Bodhisattva generated the uncontrived bodhimind, the effortless mind of enlightenment. In that respect, even an ordinary (i.e. a non-arya Bodhisattva) would have matured the whole of Shantideva's sevenfold instructions, beyond the generation of special intention, up to and including the uncontrived mind of enlightenment.

This way, they are different from you and me. It is why the effortless mind generation is said to be 'the entry door to the Mahayana path". As for myself (I don't know about you) I'm not even on the path yet :smile:

Arya bodhsiattvas, then, aren't subject to the power of 'throwing karma' anymore (but they still haven't perfected all of the six or ten perfections, they still have subtle afflictions along with knowledge-obscuration, etc), and are therefore reborn under the influence of aspirations prayers and motivation.
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Re: Desire

Postby kirtu » Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:31 pm

greentara wrote:kirtu, "Bodhisattvas are reborn in the Desire Realm because they have not eliminated desire and have not purified their karma and because of their vows"
So if Bohisattvas have not eliminated desire and not purified their karma, how are they awake? With all this baggage how are they different from you and me?


Most Bodhisattvas are not awake in the sense that you mean. Most Bodhisattvas are not on the 10th bhumi or even on the 1st bhumi. However they are awake slightly in the sense that they have raised the firm intention to attain enlightenment for the benefit of all beings. If you have taken the Bodhisattva Vows and kept them seriously then you are a Bodhisattva like that.

Bodhisattvas not on the bhumis are also reborn by the force of karma, their vows creating karma for this kind of rebirth. But they are not free to choose their rebirth (or they have in a sense a very limited choice).

There are bodhisattvas just on the Path of Accumulation (there are tulkus on the Path of Accumulation too - Lama Yeshe even taught about this).

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Re: Desire

Postby kirtu » Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:32 pm

Tenzin Dorje wrote:
greentara wrote:kirtu, "Bodhisattvas are reborn in the Desire Realm because they have not eliminated desire and have not purified their karma and because of their vows"
So if Bohisattvas have not eliminated desire and not purified their karma, how are they awake? With all this baggage how are they different from you and me?


Good questions. I would tend to make something of kirtu's division into : (1) arya Bodhisattvas, and (2) ordinary ones.


I explicitly referred to Arya and non-Arya Bodhisattvas in my posting.

Tenzin Dorje wrote:even an ordinary (i.e. a non-arya Bodhisattva) would have matured the whole of Shantideva's sevenfold instructions, beyond the generation of special intention,


No, they would not have necessarily actually matured Shantideva's teachings on this. Taking and seriously holding the Bodhisattva Vows as an intention is sufficient.

Tenzin Dorje wrote:up to and including the uncontrived mind of enlightenment.


No, not necessarily. They can still raise the mind of enlightenment just as a conceptual ideal. But they do have the special intention.

Non-Arya Bodhisattvas are mostly just ordinary sentient beings who have firmly and seriously raised the intention to attain englightenment for the sake of all beings and intend to free all beings from samsara and set all beings in liberation.

However the special intention is unbelievably powerful. Sentient beings who raise the intention seriously are in a sense fully destined to become Buddhas at some point in the future (Shantideva).

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Re: Desire

Postby dude » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:16 pm

Desire is indestructible.
The aspiration for enlightenment is a desire.
Cutting off desire does not lead to enlightenment.
By observing the mind, we distinguish which desires lead to progress and which lead to greater suffering.
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Re: Desire

Postby kirtu » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:32 pm

dude wrote:Desire is indestructible.


Afflicted desire is just a habit. It's not indestructible, otherwise there would be no Arhats or even the wearing out of the simple arisial of desire in an afflicted sentient being (and we all know that desire does eventually die out).

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Re: Desire

Postby tatpurusa » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:51 pm

reddust wrote:If one drops all desire, how does one move in the Desire Realm? I've had this question for a long time. I am still full of desire, I notice every little thing I do is powered by some kind of desire, that's why I am asking. I figured maybe Bodhisattvas move using subtle desires, like the pāramitās. Does a Buddha move? I'm going to sleep now, but I will be back. Questions of a sleepy mind probably silly, but I would like to see if anyone can answer me and citations would be nice too.

Picture of some reflections. The creek runs through our backyard and when I sit there watching the water run by usually that's when these kind of questions come up
Waterreflection1.jpg


Desirelessness does not mean that there are no desires.
The point is not wether there is desire.
More like if there is a desirerer, and who exactly it is (or not...)

It has to do with karma and the doer.
If the coming and going of thoughts is observed ..
If the coming and going of desires is observed ..

Thoughtlessness is not necessarily non-existence of thought
Desirelessness is not nesessarily non-existence of desire

It is their non-relevance to being.

We might define us on what we want
We might define us on what we do not want

Anyway it stays a mere definition.

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=14680&start=20#p196858

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Re: Desire

Postby dude » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:03 pm

Do Buddhas and bodhisattvas not desire the liberation of all living beings?
[i][/Always I am aware of which living beings

practice the way, and which do not,

and in response to their need for salvation

I preach various doctrines for them.

At all times I think to myself:

How can I cause living beings

to gain entry into the unsurpassed way

and quickly acquire the body of a buddha?
i]
- Lotus Sutra
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Re: Desire

Postby Lindama » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:11 pm

reddust wrote:If one drops all desire, how does one move in the Desire Realm? I've had this question for a long time. I am still full of desire, I notice every little thing I do is powered by some kind of desire, that's why I am asking. I figured maybe Bodhisattvas move using subtle desires, like the pāramitās. Does a Buddha move? I'm going to sleep now, but I will be back. Questions of a sleepy mind probably silly, but I would like to see if anyone can answer me and citations would be nice too.

Picture of some reflections. The creek runs through our backyard and when I sit there watching the water run by usually that's when these kind of questions come up
Waterreflection1.jpg


:namaste: The creek is the teacher... water seeks it's own place, it doesn't think about such things. It doesn't know it's water or where it should go or what it should do. When we are not self-referential, we do the next thing according to what is needed. A true bodhisattva does not plan how to help, it just happens. I call that selfless service. It has a diff feel from do-gooding which involves desire. That is not to say once the task has selected itself, we don't make a grocery list with a little planning. And ask if we should get chocolate or vanilla.
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Re: Desire

Postby Tenzin Dorje » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:37 pm

kirtu wrote:
Tenzin Dorje wrote:Good questions. I would tend to make something of kirtu's division into : (1) arya Bodhisattvas, and (2) ordinary ones.
I explicitly referred to Arya and non-Arya Bodhisattvas in my posting.

You did indeed, and this is what I meant. :smile:

No, they would not have necessarily actually matured Shantideva's teachings on this. Taking and seriously holding the Bodhisattva Vows as an intention is sufficient.

Bodhisattva on the Mahayana path would necessarily have the uncontrived bodhicitta, whether aspiring or engaging, because uncontrived bodhicitta is the entry gate to the Mahayana path. Furthermore, Bodhisattvas don't necessarily hold the Bodhisattva vows, because it is necessarily (to hold these vows) only for those who generated the ucontrived engaging bodhicitta, not the aspiring one. (cf. Lam Rim Chen Mo)

Your posting makes me think that you referred to Bodhisattvas that are not on the Mahayana path. Is it the case ?
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Re: Desire

Postby duckfiasco » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:32 pm

oushi wrote:
reddust wrote:If one drops all desire, how does one move in the Desire Realm? I've had this question for a long time.

It may be a great stopper, as dropping desires is volitional. We have the capacity to drop all desires, but we are not willing to do that, because of the consequences of desireless state. But it is good to know that desire is not the source of an action, but an attachment to it. Dropping desire does not stop activity. Like carrot on a stick that leads the donkey. Without the carrot, donkey will return to his normal activities and the one holding the stick will case to be.

:good:
Bears repeating, with bold added by me :)

We're so used to having such a proliferation of desires, conditioned by society and our culture, and even our very bodies that desire comfort and avoid discomfort, that we see them wherever we look.
Desire becomes bigger and more important than it actually is.
This question is worth investigating closely, including questioning apparently obvious assumptions, like you're doing in this thread :)
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Re: Desire

Postby oushi » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:46 pm

May we all be free from obvious assumptions.
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Re: Desire

Postby reddust » Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:59 pm

You don't drop all desire as a Buddha? I understand now as a Bodhisattva it depends on the Bhumi you are on regarding desires gross and or subtle? Can you give me suggestions on books? I am glad this is in the beginner section because my story fits this folder much better.

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful posts. I want to take the time to address all but I'm getting ready for Thanksgiving, I have my kids and grandkids and cousins I used to babysit coming over for about a week. That means lots of cooking and prep work. I want to give thanks to all of you being here :namaste:

A little background on me, don't feel sad about this story it has a lovely ending so far, many of you know me from e-sangha days about my past sexual abuse as a kid and working on over coming the deep conditioning that goes with that. I saved my sisters from abuse by directing my stepfathers craving to feed off fear onto me. I know what it is to have the strong desire to save people. My conditioning however setup adult relationships that were also abusive and I used the Dharma to address this particular obstacle. My desire was to become a better mother a better person, I needed to know equanimity (upekkha) and that is why I became a Buddhist. The Dharma did it's magic, my family is well, my kids are doing well, I did the work that needed to be done. I still have no real desire to become a Buddha, but I am sure with time this desire will blossom.

My ex husband said his favorite things to do were drinking, hunting, and sex, he was not a kind or loving person, he was very abusive, full of rage. He was what I knew and was comfortable with, what I grew up with. When I figured out most of my suffering was caused by my conditioning, not the people in my life, I went into therapy and 5 years of intense vipassana retreats. I left him and that life behind after my kids had grown up. I hardly remember the person I used to be back then. Most if not all the gross conditioning from my childhood abuse was gone after five years of vipassana, panic attacks, night terrors, intense flooding thoughts and emotions, eating disorder, rage, unreasonable resentments, feeling vengeful. I can honestly say I never hated the people who hurt me and my family. Even at six or seven years old I tried to reason/talk my way out of abusive situations and came to find out my abusers where also abused themselves. If I couldn't reason my way out I fought my way out and was sent away to a foster home for awhile. I never hated my stepfather, I just wanted him to be a good father, I tried to be friends with him as an adult but he never admitted to the abuse, my family never believed me, so I walked away. When you fight crazy people to protect your family and yourself you end up looking crazy and feeling crazy, that's part of the grooming and manipulation of abusers, they isolate you and make you look bad.

When you hear me talking about protecting my family and myself you need to understand the context in which I come from. My father died when I was five, I was cooking for my Mom and sister who was 2 years younger because my Mom couldn't take care of us, she was totally freaked out. My mother had a pension for abusive men and neglecting her children. So I have been protecting and caring for people all my life. I would kill if I had to protect my family even though I can take being killed or abused, I know because I've been there. Even though I have never killed anything bigger than a chicken and I don't own any guns. I will use a gun if I have too.

So when I did all that retreat work tons of conditioning peeled away, not only the gross stuff, but things I used to protect me like the desire to paint, my interest in music, reading fiction, watching tv, to do things that were not bad per say but where used to hide. No one tells you about this part of the work when you do lose desire you may lose interest in things that used to move you. That is when the question about desire came up, OMG…what if I lose all my desires, how will I move? Gosh that was over 15 years ago.

I did use my rage to stick to my cushion during my initial vipassana retreats, I used all those really gross desires and most of them were burned up, including sexual desire. Gross desire still pops up but I am getting old and don't really care or maybe with practice they can't move me much anymore. I don't lose my temper like I used to but I can feel really intensely and feel this throughout the body, it's very odd. When I came to Vajrayana I had already done a lot of work, I still am thick with all sorts of sticky attachments, attached to personality, self, me and mine, I am nothing special, I know hundreds of people like me who have pretty much the same recovery story, different routes with the same conclusion. I've done a lot of group work with survivors. If you really want to you can move on from past trauma and gross desires that overcome your ability to have a good life.

I did take Bodhisattva vows with my first Dharma teacher Sunim, a monk from Korea, he instructed me sternly on all the things involved including the importance sticking to the path. So I figure the main difference between my vipassana training and Vajrayana practice is how desire is used. Vipassana everything is just sensation when you peel everything else away and I have seen sensation turn into sound and light, it's beautiful, just like what Vajrayana says. But dealing with gross desire is treated differently in the Theravada and Vajrayana teachings. I just wanted to do some thematic research on desire regarding the high end bodhisattvas and Buddha. So tips and suggestions regarding reading are awesome, I would like to use terms correctly.

Sharing your stories and thoughts are really helpful as well, they make me feel really happy and thank you so much. I am still crawling around like a baby regarding Vipassana and Vajrayana practice, especially integration. Most of my past Dharma practice and work was cleaning out the barn full of poop, it's composted really well now and I can use it to grow a beautiful garden. Also I think this is a great subject and story for beginners, which I am not, I am an old student and also getting pretty old as a human being.

So desire isn't a bad thing, I think from what I've experienced its how it is used. Just like men aren't bad, even thought they have harmed me and my family greatly and do most of the killing world wide with and without guns. Heck I figured that one out when I was six years old. :heart:

I hope I haven't overwhelmed you all with details but I've shared this story many times in the past, it's a really old story and it will help many of you relate to me and my posts. More reflections from my backyard creek.

Cold, clear water, hard stone, movement and reflections, divine indifference. :heart:
Last edited by reddust on Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Desire

Postby reddust » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:44 am

duckfiasco wrote:
oushi wrote:
reddust wrote:If one drops all desire, how does one move in the Desire Realm? I've had this question for a long time.

It may be a great stopper, as dropping desires is volitional. We have the capacity to drop all desires, but we are not willing to do that, because of the consequences of desireless state. But it is good to know that desire is not the source of an action, but an attachment to it. Dropping desire does not stop activity. Like carrot on a stick that leads the donkey. Without the carrot, donkey will return to his normal activities and the one holding the stick will case to be.

:good:
Bears repeating, with bold added by me :)

We're so used to having such a proliferation of desires, conditioned by society and our culture, and even our very bodies that desire comfort and avoid discomfort, that we see them wherever we look.
Desire becomes bigger and more important than it actually is.
This question is worth investigating closely, including questioning apparently obvious assumptions, like you're doing in this thread :)


Yes this makes sense! When I watch myself move, every movement is done out of the need to avoid or cling to sensation.
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Re: Desire

Postby reddust » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:48 am

kirtu wrote:
greentara wrote:kirtu, "Bodhisattvas are reborn in the Desire Realm because they have not eliminated desire and have not purified their karma and because of their vows"
So if Bohisattvas have not eliminated desire and not purified their karma, how are they awake? With all this baggage how are they different from you and me?


Most Bodhisattvas are not awake in the sense that you mean. Most Bodhisattvas are not on the 10th bhumi or even on the 1st bhumi. However they are awake slightly in the sense that they have raised the firm intention to attain enlightenment for the benefit of all beings. If you have taken the Bodhisattva Vows and kept them seriously then you are a Bodhisattva like that.

Bodhisattvas not on the bhumis are also reborn by the force of karma, their vows creating karma for this kind of rebirth. But they are not free to choose their rebirth (or they have in a sense a very limited choice).

There are bodhisattvas just on the Path of Accumulation (there are tulkus on the Path of Accumulation too - Lama Yeshe even taught about this).

Kirt
Tenzin Dorje wrote:
greentara wrote:kirtu, "Bodhisattvas are reborn in the Desire Realm because they have not eliminated desire and have not purified their karma and because of their vows"
So if Bohisattvas have not eliminated desire and not purified their karma, how are they awake? With all this baggage how are they different from you and me?


Good questions. I would tend to make something of kirtu's division into : (1) arya Bodhisattvas, and (2) ordinary ones.

Still, an ordinary Bodhisattva generated the uncontrived bodhimind, the effortless mind of enlightenment. In that respect, even an ordinary (i.e. a non-arya Bodhisattva) would have matured the whole of Shantideva's sevenfold instructions, beyond the generation of special intention, up to and including the uncontrived mind of enlightenment.

This way, they are different from you and me. It is why the effortless mind generation is said to be 'the entry door to the Mahayana path". As for myself (I don't know about you) I'm not even on the path yet :smile:

Arya bodhsiattvas, then, aren't subject to the power of 'throwing karma' anymore (but they still haven't perfected all of the six or ten perfections, they still have subtle afflictions along with knowledge-obscuration, etc), and are therefore reborn under the influence of aspirations prayers and motivation.
Lindama wrote:
reddust wrote:If one drops all desire, how does one move in the Desire Realm? I've had this question for a long time. I am still full of desire, I notice every little thing I do is powered by some kind of desire, that's why I am asking. I figured maybe Bodhisattvas move using subtle desires, like the pāramitās. Does a Buddha move? I'm going to sleep now, but I will be back. Questions of a sleepy mind probably silly, but I would like to see if anyone can answer me and citations would be nice too.

Picture of some reflections. The creek runs through our backyard and when I sit there watching the water run by usually that's when these kind of questions come up
Waterreflection1.jpg


:namaste: The creek is the teacher... water seeks it's own place, it doesn't think about such things. It doesn't know it's water or where it should go or what it should do. When we are not self-referential, we do the next thing according to what is needed. A true bodhisattva does not plan how to help, it just happens. I call that selfless service. It has a diff feel from do-gooding which involves desire. That is not to say once the task has selected itself, we don't make a grocery list with a little planning. And ask if we should get chocolate or vanilla.


Ha! I will sort this out and make notes for research thank you :twothumbsup:
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