Buddhism & Guns?

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:35 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:And I also dislike the attitude of PC gun-grabbing statists.
:rolling:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby TheSpirit » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:43 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
TheSpirit wrote:That's immature. You obviously didn't notice what we have been saying all a long. In your mind anyone who owns gun is equivalent to a thug running around with one threatening each others.
I was talking to reddust (who has confessed to threatening somebody with a shotgun) and seems to to subscribe to "peace through equal firepower".

Guns, like poison, are made for killing . It's that simple. Except (it seems) to the simple minded.


You are joking right? Did you not read what she said? She said he was an intruder. What is she supposed to do? Let him harm her and her kids? So apparently if she is being threaten and probably under risk of being harmed she is just suppose to let them do it in the name of Buddhism? Do you have loved one such as parents, siblings, spouses, close friends and so on? Are you willing to watch them get killed, raped, beaten up if you can help it?

If letting go of attachment mean being a cold hearted person then I don't think I want to be enlightened. If protecting your loved one is view as negative then I do not think this path is for me.
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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby Lhug-Pa » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:47 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote: :rolling:


Sounded a little too 'Alex Jones-ish' for ya?

Hey, at least I don't say "libtard" like the neocon Ann Coulter does.
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby TheSpirit » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:49 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
TheSpirit wrote:However I think it might have a lot more to do with where the members are from geographically that influence their stance on this issue. I bet most people from Europe is completely against it.

The rest of the western world recognises that America has an obsession with guns. It seems to be part of your national identity.

We want nothing of it, because we see the harm it causes.


Then please don't get involve in it. :smile:
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Re: Self-Defense in Buddhism

Postby Carabosse » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:51 pm

Image
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Re: Self-Defense in Buddhism

Postby Nighthawk » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:35 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:No self centered grasping as in the full acceptance of our inability to produce Buddhahood by ourselves in this lifetime (by meditation, precepts etc.) not the other way around.
Like completely irrelevant...

Yes it's relevant. I don't agree with you nor will I ever on most issues.
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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby dharmagoat » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:56 am

TheSpirit wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:We want nothing of it, because we see the harm it causes.

Then please don't get involve in it. :smile:

We don't. New Zealand police do not carry guns.
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Re: Self-Defense in Buddhism

Postby Konchog1 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:08 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:Then the Suttas/Sutras disagree with the Sutta/Sutras. If intention is everything then why did the Buddha stop Angulimala? He was one finger away from liberation according to your theory. Why did Angulimala have to undergo the ripening of his karma if his intention was pure? What about Yodhajiva the warrior? Talaputa the actor? Kukkuravatika the dog-duty ascetic? etc... Surely, given their intentions, they didn't need a lesson from the Buddha, right?
...none of their intentions were pure...

Bodhicitta is makes actions pure, not the desire to kill...
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

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Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:33 am

Look, I was a hunter in my youth. Owned a number of weapons and used them. During a certain episode, due to justified paranoid fear, I even chased a person down a suburban street whilst brandishing a loaded gun. This was not in the US.

I served in the Greek (not in the US) military as a conscript. All "able-bodied" males over the age of eighteen are obliged, by law, to serve in the Greek army. We would shoot targets, with a variety of weapons, on a regular basis. Shooting targets was clearly training/practice for shooting people. It was fun (I admit) but its purpose was quite clear. Now (on the basis of my military record and the fact that I followed obligatory post-conscription training) they have drafted me into the National Guard. Every month they call me to go train with a variety of weapons. I refuse to go. Thankfully it is not obligatory. There are perks to being a registered National Guardsman, but I refuse to take the bait.

So one could say that I have a pretty good idea about guns, right?

So, for me, it is pretty damn clear that if somebody says that guns are not for killing that either they are a) Naive to the point of brain dead stupidity or b) Purposefully deceptive (including self-deception) in order to justify their agenda.

Now, I do not know if reddust was justified in threatening an armed offender with her own weapon, I wasn't there. But, for me, for somebody to risk killing or be killed, would require a fair degree of attachment to the object they are wishing to defend OR aversion to object they are threatening. On re-reading the story it also seems to me that if the intruder really wanted to carry through what they were requesting, they easily could have done so, because reddust was not armed when they initially confronted the intruder. So the intruder could (if it was their intention) have shot reddust before her child brought her the gun.

So the intruder was relying on the threat of death or wounding and reddust responded by threatening death or wounding. Can somebody please point out how this fits into a Buddhist ethical framework? If I remember correctly, one of the categories of wrong livelihood is trade in weapons. Buying (and thus owning) a weapon is part of the process of trading in weapons.

PS Appealing to emotion is not considered a valid form of intelligent discussion.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Self-Defense in Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:38 am

...none of their intentions were pure...

Bodhicitta is makes actions pure, not the desire to kill...

Angulimalas, for example, intention for killing was because their teacher told them it would lead to spiritual liberation. Angulimalas intention was pure. They did not kill out of a desire to kill, but out of devotion to their teacher and spiritual liberation.
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Self-Defense in Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:39 am

Carabosse wrote:Image
Just in case you didn't know, the guys in the picture lost. Really badly lost. Continue to really badly lose. Just in case you didn't know. And since when did the eight worldly dharmas (in this case the fear of loss and suffering and the hope of gain and happiness) become a Buddhist path?
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Self-Defense in Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:41 am

Nighthawk wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:No self centered grasping as in the full acceptance of our inability to produce Buddhahood by ourselves in this lifetime (by meditation, precepts etc.) not the other way around.
Like completely irrelevant...

Yes it's relevant. I don't agree with you nor will I ever on most issues.
Not only irrelevant, but also an invalid practice in debate/discussion. :twothumbsup:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Self-Defense in Buddhism

Postby Nighthawk » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:54 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:Just in case you didn't know, the guys in the picture lost. Really badly lost. Continue to really badly lose. Just in case you didn't know. And since when did the eight worldly dharmas (in this case the fear of loss and suffering and the hope of gain and happiness) become a Buddhist path?


Since when did being a coward become part of the path? At least those brave selfless soldiers in that picture fought for what was right.
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Re: Self-Defense in Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:09 am

Like these brave selfless soldiers are willing to kill and die in order to protect their culture, families, religion, country, etc... from foreign invaders motivated by greed and a lust for power?

Taliban.jpg
Taliban.jpg (10.1 KiB) Viewed 113 times

Are we finished with the romanticising drivel yet?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Self-Defense in Buddhism

Postby Nighthawk » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:12 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:Like these brave selfless soldiers are willing to kill and die in order to protect their culture, families, religion, country, etc... from foreign invaders motivated by greed and a lust for power?

Taliban.jpg

Are we finished with the romanticising drivel yet?


Keep dreaming of your little ideal Buddhist utopia myth here in samsara.
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Re: Self-Defense in Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:15 am

Nighthawk wrote:Keep dreaming of your little ideal Buddhist utopia myth here in samsara.
I will most definitely follow your advice. Thank you.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Self-Defense in Buddhism

Postby Nighthawk » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:18 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:Keep dreaming of your little ideal Buddhist utopia myth here in samsara.
I will most definitely follow your advice. Thank you.
:namaste:

:jumping:
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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby muni » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:43 am

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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby TheSpirit » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:02 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Look, I was a hunter in my youth. Owned a number of weapons and used them. During a certain episode, due to justified paranoid fear, I even chased a person down a suburban street whilst brandishing a loaded gun. This was not in the US.

I served in the Greek (not in the US) military as a conscript. All "able-bodied" males over the age of eighteen are obliged, by law, to serve in the Greek army. We would shoot targets, with a variety of weapons, on a regular basis. Shooting targets was clearly training/practice for shooting people. It was fun (I admit) but its purpose was quite clear. Now (on the basis of my military record and the fact that I followed obligatory post-conscription training) they have drafted me into the National Guard. Every month they call me to go train with a variety of weapons. I refuse to go. Thankfully it is not obligatory. There are perks to being a registered National Guardsman, but I refuse to take the bait.

So one could say that I have a pretty good idea about guns, right?

So, for me, it is pretty damn clear that if somebody says that guns are not for killing that either they are a) Naive to the point of brain dead stupidity or b) Purposefully deceptive (including self-deception) in order to justify their agenda.

Now, I do not know if reddust was justified in threatening an armed offender with her own weapon, I wasn't there. But, for me, for somebody to risk killing or be killed, would require a fair degree of attachment to the object they are wishing to defend OR aversion to object they are threatening. On re-reading the story it also seems to me that if the intruder really wanted to carry through what they were requesting, they easily could have done so, because reddust was not armed when they initially confronted the intruder. So the intruder could (if it was their intention) have shot reddust before her child brought her the gun.

So the intruder was relying on the threat of death or wounding and reddust responded by threatening death or wounding. Can somebody please point out how this fits into a Buddhist ethical framework? If I remember correctly, one of the categories of wrong livelihood is trade in weapons. Buying (and thus owning) a weapon is part of the process of trading in weapons.

PS Appealing to emotion is not considered a valid form of intelligent discussion.


I think you are rather the naive one beyond imagination. Yes Gun was created to shoot. Does it has to kill? Yes it can. You can also shoot a guy legs off and then immobilize him without killing.The intruder might not have a gun and can easily empower reddust. I think its rather clear here what she is saying. She is not taking a risk of a stranger on her property. Now did she shoot the guy? No she didn't. Did the gun chase him away? Yes it did. I think your framework of Buddhist ethics is twisted. I hardly find there is anything wrong with a mother protecting their children. ThIs is why I believe your dogmatic belief in Buddhism is the problem. Like I made the comparison to False speech, lying to save and to harm are both false speech, but the intention behind it is what matter. The intention behind owning the gun is protecting oneself and loved one is not the same as running around killing people for no reason as you seem to think all gun owners do.

and for the record, yes she is attached to her kids, what is why she protect them. What in the world do you think? Aren't you attached to something to that yoy would hate to lose? Quit being a nonsensical Buddha-wannabe
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Re: Gun and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:16 pm

TheSpirit wrote:I think you are rather the naive one beyond imagination. Yes Gun was created to shoot. Does it has to kill? Yes it can. You can also shoot a guy legs off and then immobilize him without killing.
When was the last time you shot the legs off a sentient being?

Here is (Warning: graphic and distrubing images) a link to a simple google search with pictures of people with non-fatal (and some fatal) gun shot wounds.

So, while perusing the photos, ask yourself: Would I want somebody to inflict that sort of suffering on me? I think the answer will be pretty obvious.

Then ask yourself: Given that other sentient beings suffer as I do, why would I want to inflict that sort of suffering on them?

If the answer to that question is: "To save my own ass (or the ass of those I am attached to) at the cost of theirs", then the doctors diagnosis is that you are suffering from self centred grasping.

Look up Tonglen and Lojong techniques, they are a must for "non-sensical Buddha wannabes".
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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