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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:21 am 
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David N. Snyder wrote:
Since it is a very Christian university, shouldn't they be asking:

WWJD?


Some are certainly asking that but they live isolated in a mindset that combines fundamentalist Christianity with American conservatism as if they were inseparable.

Kirt

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:03 pm 
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I hope nobody gets mad and shoots someone.

This policy is dangerous


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:57 pm 
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Quote:
Liberty University is neither a university ...


IANAL, but this statement may be actionable libel, since they are, in fact, an accredited university:

Quote:
Liberty was founded in 1971 and received Southern Association of Colleges and Schools (SACS) accreditation in 1980,[51] which was most recently reaffirmed in 2006.[52] In addition, it was accredited by the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS) in September 1984, but resigned its TRACS accreditation on November 6, 2008.[53][54] Liberty has 60 accredited degree granting programs.[55] The law school, which opened in August 2004, gained provisional accreditation from the American Bar Association in 2006 and was granted full accreditation in 2010.[56] On December 9, 2009, Chancellor Jerry Falwell Jr. announced that "Liberty University has received Level VI accreditation from the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools (SACS). This is the highest classification from SACS and is reserved for colleges and universities that offer four or more doctoral degrees.[57] Liberty is also accredited by: American Bar Association (ABA) [58] Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET)[58] National Council for Accreditation of Teacher Education (NCATE)[58] Commission on Collegiate Nursing Education (CCNE)[58] Aviation Accreditation Board International (AABI) [59] National Association of Schools of Music (NASM) [60] Commission on Accreditation of Athletic Training Education (CAATE) [58] Accreditation of Allied Health Education Programs (CAAHEP),[58] Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET).[61]

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Un ... reditation


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 Post subject: Gun and Buddhism
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:54 pm 
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What is Buddhist view on owning and trading gun (as hobby and self defense). I read somewhere online that trading weapons would be consider as wrong livelihood in Buddhism.

having that said, wouldn't martial art like Shaolin monks be too consider wrong livelihood since don't they use a stick as a weapon?

Thank you,

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 Post subject: Re: Gun and Buddhism
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:06 pm 
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the difference between a gun and a stick is quite huge. guns are made for killing not self defense. stick can be made for any purposes ie self defense but not killing.

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In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
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He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

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 Post subject: Re: Gun and Buddhism
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:09 pm 
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I am pretty sure you can kill someone with a shaolin stick. The difference was the time in which things were invented.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun and Buddhism
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:23 pm 
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TheSpirit wrote:
I am pretty sure you can kill someone with a shaolin stick. The difference was the time in which things were invented.


Not really, a stick is findable anywhere, and can be used for non-lethal purposes, not to mention non-weapon purposes.. a gun is to kill something, that's it's purpose. Trading in weapons would almost defintely be wrong livelihood..I can't imagine that even being a debate.

I imagine the answer to this is really up in the air, especially if you live rurally etc., it is "normal" on some level to own a gun.

Historically as far as I know generally the ordained Sangha was definitely prohibited from owning weapons, i'm not clear on how it'd work with householders.

Really if you plan on owning a gun you should ask whether you really need it, the vast majority if people I know with guns (and I know alot, from years of doing Martial arts, you meet some characters lol) don't need them at all. I know alot of upper middle class people who have these delusions that someone will soon break down their door or something so they "need to be prepared". Generally, violence has a lot of warning signs, if one is concerned with self-defense, there are a bunch of things to look at (habits, victim profile, personal experience with violence, capabilities and attitudes etc.) long before owning a weapon needs any consideration, simply reading a book on those subjects in many cases is probably a better self defense method than following one's paranoid leanings to acquire weaponry.

I've read lots of people making reasoned claims about why the need firearms for "self defense", but in actually I have met very few who I think have any legitimate need, IMO alot of it is due to a media-induced crime fantasy (violent crime has dropped for years)...I don't rule out that they can be used for self-defense at all, only that it is necessary for most people.

From my perspective, the cons of owning a gun really seem to outweigh the pros, particularly as a Buddhist.

Just my own take of course.

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Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun and Buddhism
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:33 pm 
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Isn't pointing a gun at someone just an invitation for violence?

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 Post subject: Re: Gun and Buddhism
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:06 pm 
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Guns are silly, I prefer one of these personally:

Attachment:
rpg.jpg
rpg.jpg [ 5.39 KiB | Viewed 640 times ]


The guy in the balaclava carrying the rpg is a cheap optional extra which you can purchase from the manufacturer.

Why don't you try this 22 page thread on the very same topic. I am sure you will find any number of answers from both sides of the argument in the thread.

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 Post subject: Self-Defense in Buddhism
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:52 pm 
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There's already another thread on guns, gun trading, etc., but what about various Buddhistic notions and teachings on the broader category of self-defense?

For example, I am a semi-disabled "senior citizen", arthritic, heavy, and I must walk with a cane. I don't look on the cane as a weapon because if I used it, first I would lose my balance, and second would offer an attacker a ready-made weapon to use against me.

Instead, I carry a small canister of pepper spray in a pocket, in case attacked by humans or animals. The idea is to disable the attacker while giving the victim a chance to exit the area. The attacker is not permanently harmed. Are non-lethal self-defense devices, such as pepper spray, "permissible" in Buddhism?

Depending on one's living and/or work neighborhood, is it permissible to carry a potentially lethal weapon - whether or not concealed (depending on local laws) - such as a gun or a knife?

What about the body itself as a weapon? Are martial arts permissible for self-defense (remember Carradine's old show, Kung-Fu). What's the difference, if any, between self-defensive body-training and carrying a weapon?

Does Buddhism distinguish between legitimate self-defense and illegitimate self-defense? I.e., are there situations where even self-defense must not be utilized, even if it means the death of the person threatened?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:09 pm 
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I would say non-lethal self defense is appropriate.
In the Nirvana Sutra, the Buddha noted that in some regions there would be little danger of monks being killed, and prohibited them carrying weapons.
In others, where such threats did exist he said "Carry swords and staves. But never use them to take life."


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:10 pm 
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As far as I know, it is possible:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ssage.html
Quote:
If a monk was physically attacked, the Buddha allowed him to strike back in self-defense, but never with the intention to kill. As he told the monks,

"Even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves."


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 Post subject: Re: Gun and Buddhism
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:15 pm 
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A little background on myself. I live in Oklahoma of United State. It is more rural and it is down south of the United States. So yes guns are almost normal as any other hobby. I think I should make it clear that we do target shooting (not hunting). So no we don't run around pointing guns at people.....that is quite silly....so therefore, no it is not an invitation for violence, in fact we talk about the proper conduct and responsibility with guns.

I think I should make it clear that Shaolin Martial Art don't just use any random sticks they pick off the ground. they use a very specialize wooden stick and it can definitely hurt and kill.

Let compare guns to another art, what about Kyudo? They use a yumi or a bow and they shoot at a target. Does buddhist still consider that wrong livelihood if one is interested in the way of the bow? And yes a bow and arrow was specifically made to kill.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:19 pm 
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zamotcr wrote:
As far as I know, it is possible:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ssage.html
Quote:
If a monk was physically attacked, the Buddha allowed him to strike back in self-defense, but never with the intention to kill. As he told the monks,

"Even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves."


I just did a search on Self-Defense in Buddhism and that was the very first article I went to. Quite educational. :twothumbsup:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:23 pm 
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At least for me karma is volitional, so if your intention is not to harm, I don't think that will cause you bad or negative karma, or at least not much.

For me intention is what matters. I will not let someone just to hit me because I'm Buddhist.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun and Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:37 am 
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I think I should make it clear that Shaolin Martial Art don't just use any random sticks they pick off the ground. they use a very specialize wooden stick and it can definitely hurt and kill.

:rolling:

A stick is a stick is a stick. There is nothing special about the sticks used for martial arts, excepting generally choosing one that is relatively straight. Actually I have seen people effectively use some pretty warped rattan on ocassion, but I digress.

In general a stick was a simple travellers tool, or even part of a farming implement. Its evolution as a weapon is nothing more than simple expediency. Nothing mystical about it.


Geez, there's so much lingering romantic tosh still bandied around about 'Shaolin'. :popcorn:

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 Post subject: Re: Gun and Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:47 am 
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dharmagoat wrote:
Isn't pointing a gun at someone just an invitation for violence?

TheSpirit wrote:
I think I should make it clear that we do target shooting (not hunting). So no we don't run around pointing guns at people.....that is quite silly....so therefore, no it is not an invitation for violence, in fact we talk about the proper conduct and responsibility with guns.

I meant "Isn't pointing a gun at an intruder just an invitation for violence?", as you would if you were using a gun for self-defense. Especially if the other guy had a gun too. Messy.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun and Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:31 am 
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Pointing a stick at an intruder is equally likely to be an invitation to violence.


In fact point anything at anyone is generally not recommended... even if it is a piece of fruit.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun and Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:26 am 
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Shaolin monks trained how to effectively disable an opponent without killing him,
even though they could, stick or no stick.
That was thew whole point.
Not to kill.
.
.
.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun and Buddhism
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:46 am 
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I grew up in rural America when even city folk, flat landers had firearms for protection here in America. Our second amendment wasn't just for protection against common criminals and hunting. Our second amendment is and was for protection against rogue governments, which are alive and well today. I will kill to protect my family and country. If I can run or figure a way out of the fix without violence, I will take this first. I've had a rifle since I was six years old, hunting license since I was twelve. The only things I have killed as a farm girl are chickens and that's with a very sharp knife. Where I grew up people knew how to use guns were trained up proper, no gun accidents. Most accidents and death were from farming equipment. But I've butchered ever single farm animal you can think of, wrapped, frozen, canned, and smoked most as well. I'm not proud or ashamed, this is how I grew up. My family on both sides of my lineage suffered genocide and theft of our lands. We grew up very aware of abusive authority. Call me what you want, I still practice and will continue to practice the Dharma.

EDIT: I've also faced an intruder with four young kids behind me and a shotgun. My oldest girl ran and got the shotgun for me …. my husband was a shift worker and not home that evening, the guy left real fast after wanting to know what we had in our barn and if he could hunt through our land and I had asked him to leave 3 times prior to grabbing the firearm.

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