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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:46 am 
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flowerbudh wrote:
Might we all be in nirvana already and we just don't know?


In a way, yes.
All living beings are in their true aspect Buddhas.
The only difference is that a Buddha is awakened to life in its true aspect.
I might add that it's very perceptive of you to think of that.
Namaste.


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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:49 am 
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KonchokZoepa wrote:
linking these two posts together, i see that you consider yourself as being this human body. and for that matter you consider that everything in your mind is impermanent since you seem to indicate that it is contained within this human being and this universe and no where else. the mind is not impermanent, even though the skandhas are. mind essence or buddha-nature is not impermanent and is in your mind. i could think that when actually attaining enlightenment you would realize that you are not a human being, so the answer can you attain it while being a human being, yes and no. think about it..
also what already transcends time and space, yet you do not see it cause you have created limitations and barriers. mind. if you want to understand at least what it means to transcend the time read Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso's - sun of wisdom - teachings of Nagarjuna's mulamadhyamakakarika.

i think it is true that words cannot describe it in its fullest, but it can show you the way to some greater or lesser degree.

and also to point out if you think that nothing is permanent you are falling into one of the extremes, nihilism and thus are not following the middle way correctly. neither permanent nor impermanent, not both, and not either. but the middle.


This does not seem correct to me; the idea that mind is permanent, that mind essence or Buddha-nature is IN mind, that mind transcends time and space, or that the idea that nothing is permanent is the extreme of falling into nihilism.

I think you have seriously misunderstood Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika.

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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:20 am 
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Interesting description.... what isn't! 'In that state there is no air or water, and no creation or creator; There is no bud or flower, and no fetus or semen; There is no education or Vedas, and no word or taste; There is no body or settlement, and no earth, air or space; There is no guru or disciple, and no easy or difficult path'
kabir


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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:44 am 
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Without being more specific where various ideas and views on nirvana come from, but all throwing them into the discussion, things are only going to get more confused than clearer. The understanding of this term -- and we were only given a term without any specific context or tradition point of view to be with -- vary a considerable amount over time and place.

~~ Huifeng

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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:31 am 
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flowerbudh wrote:
Might we all be in nirvana already and we just don't know?

It's more that buddhahood is an innate quality. This is sometimes conveyed with the concept of buddha nature [tathāgatagharbha], we all have inborn Buddha potential because our fundamental nature is primordially pure [as profound emptiness]. The fact that we are ignorant of this is the root of samsara. When we recognize this inborn nature, and dispel our afflictive conditioning, fully integrating with our nature, then that is nirvana [buddhahood / dharmakāya].


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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:01 pm 
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duckfiasco wrote:
Nirvana is so utterly ordinary we overlook :



One possible problem can be; we fill the silence with many clouds, in order to see clear sunny sky.
One thing perhaps what is clear to me: no any of my thoughts about could delete experienced suffering.

:namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:13 pm 
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philji wrote:
Nirvana is the extinguishing..the snuffing out...of what you may ask.. What do you think....


It isn't. That's what I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:17 pm 
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asunthatneversets wrote:
flowerbudh wrote:
Might we all be in nirvana already and we just don't know?

It's more that buddhahood is an innate quality. This is sometimes conveyed with the concept of buddha nature [tathāgatagharbha], we all have inborn Buddha potential because our fundamental nature is primordially pure [as profound emptiness]. The fact that we are ignorant of this is the root of samsara. When we recognize this inborn nature, and dispel our afflictive conditioning, fully integrating with our nature, then that is nirvana [buddhahood / dharmakāya].


I agree with you.
On second thought, I'd say that perception of emptiness, while very high, still falls short.


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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:03 pm 
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It's neither human, nor is it not human. It's neither here, nor is it not here.

I think it's defined in so many different ways, that it becomes a Buddhist catch all term for the ultimate good. The thing for me is, Buddha was a human being, and he dwelled in Nirvana. I am a human being, I live in this world right here right now, hence if Nirvana doesn't happen to a human being, it is of no importance for me. But it is of importance for me, because Gautama Buddha, even while being human, reached that other shore.


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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:48 pm 
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Huifeng wrote:
Without being more specific where various ideas and views on nirvana come from, but all throwing them into the discussion, things are only going to get more confused than clearer. The understanding of this term -- and we were only given a term without any specific context or tradition point of view to be with -- vary a considerable amount over time and place.


Just as Master Huifeng says. Buddhism has many forms, many styles, many teachings. Without context all meaning is lost.

Simply put, samsara is being moved by greed, anger and ignorance. Nirvana is freedom from (putting out) those three poisons.

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"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:44 pm 
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dude wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:
flowerbudh wrote:
Might we all be in nirvana already and we just don't know?

It's more that buddhahood is an innate quality. This is sometimes conveyed with the concept of buddha nature [tathāgatagharbha], we all have inborn Buddha potential because our fundamental nature is primordially pure [as profound emptiness]. The fact that we are ignorant of this is the root of samsara. When we recognize this inborn nature, and dispel our afflictive conditioning, fully integrating with our nature, then that is nirvana [buddhahood / dharmakāya].


I agree with you.
On second thought, I'd say that perception of emptiness, while very high, still falls short.

A perception [recognition] of emptiness would fall short, the realization of emptiness [dharmakāya] however, is a complete knowledge, and wouldn't fall short. In some traditions that realization can occur in a more refined manner, but ultimately buddhahood is buddhahood. The realization of emptiness is liberation. 


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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:53 am 
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I agree with you.
On second thought, I'd say that perception of emptiness, while very high, still falls short.[/quote]
A perception [recognition] of emptiness would fall short, the realization of emptiness [dharmakāya] however, is a complete knowledge, and wouldn't fall short. In some traditions that realization can occur in a more refined manner, but ultimately buddhahood is buddhahood. The realization of emptiness is liberation. [/quote]

In that case, what do you make of this sutra passage :
"Then he proceeds to the perception of emptiness; 'there is nothing'
"Then he proceeds to the state of non perception
"Then he proceeds to the state of neither perception nor non perception
"The he proceeds to the state of 'The work is done. The holy life has been lived. There is no more coming to any state of existence."


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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:26 am 
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dude wrote:
In that case, what do you make of this sutra passage :
"Then he proceeds to the perception of emptiness; 'there is nothing'
"Then he proceeds to the state of non perception
"Then he proceeds to the state of neither perception nor non perception
"The he proceeds to the state of 'The work is done. The holy life has been lived. There is no more coming to any state of existence."


Could you provide the source of your quote, please dude ?

:reading:

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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:13 am 
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Nibbāna – How can it be described?

What is nibbāna? And where is nibbāna? For general understanding, nibbāna is not a state of paradise or some sort of heavenly realms that can be found alongside the planes of existence within the cosmos. In an ultimate sense, nibbāna does not exist at all, but why? This is because there is non-existence of the mind to provide with descriptions, perceptions, names, shapes, etc. within the state of nibbāna. Furthermore, mind is dependent arising but nibbāna is a non-dependent arising state of affairs i.e. with no rising and falling activities taking place. In other words, nibbāna is a completely neutralised state of affairs – in contrast with the conventional phenomenon that would subject to the conditional influences i.e. in a continuous and constantly changing state of affairs.

In the dependent nature or samsāra, there is an element of suffering or dukkha. Suffering means ‘bearing with’ in the Buddhist context and ‘letting go’ is the antonym of it. Literally, there are no elements of grasping when one practises letting go. When no grasping arises, the becoming process would slow down. This is because everything in the dependent nature is nothing but energy. And energy is nothing but mere vibration. When the becoming process slows down, it means energy is vibrating at lower frequencies. When the becoming process ceases, energy literally stops vibrating. Energy just got ‘frozen.’ Zero vibration means zero becoming. Zero becoming means an absolute cessation of any changing activities. Thus an absolute stage of absence is achieved. Absence means a perfect state of balance. Therefore, absence is not about nothingness but instead it is about no-thing-ness. No thing means no becoming or no changing. No changing means no suffering. No suffering means no mind. Mind is the forerunner of all states. No mind means a completely neutralised state of affairs - that is nibbāna. The state of nibbāna is inexplicable in conventional terms but still, it can be tasted by the enlightened ones during deep meditation.

However, there is an argument that says nothing stops completely in the scientific world. In physics, there is something called zero-point energy or the lowest level that energy could exist. Scientists have discovered that Hydrogen (the smallest molecule in the material Universe with a single atom) cannot be frozen completely i.e. it would cool down to a specific low temperature and then continues to vibrate again. In other words, the material Universe does not freeze itself completely in the coldest region and there is always energy that vibrates in the outer space.

Well, it is a valid argument that energy can neither be stationary nor be created nor be destroyed in the scientific sense. But how then could we best describe a scenario of ‘frozen’ energy here? Let us look at the case of a black hole in the material Universe. Black holes were originally called frozen stars because they appear to ‘freeze’ at a size just slightly bigger than the Schwarzschild radius - the distance at which all matter within that distance will collapse into the singularity. Around the black hole, there is a surface called event horizon that marks the point of no return. Any objects that fall and cross the event horizon would appear to freeze from the perspective of an observer who is stationary at great distance from the event horizon. Just as in Einstein’s special theory of relativity, if you were to enter a black hole, you would find your watch ticking along at the same rate as it always had but someone else at great distance from the black hole would see a different ticking rate on your watch than the usual, and you would see their watch to be ticking at a different than normal rate.

For instance, if you were to station yourself just outside a black hole, while you would find your own watch ticking at the normal rate, you would see the watch of a friend at great distance from the hole to be ticking at a much faster rate than yours. Your friend would see his own watch ticking at a normal rate, but see your watch to be ticking at a much slower rate. Thus if you stayed just outside the black hole for a while, then went back to join your friend, you would find that the friend had aged more than you had during your separation. At the end of the day, if you were to cross into the event horizon, you appear to freeze, as seen by your friend and it is only an ‘optical’ illusion that makes your friend think that you never cross the horizon when in actual fact you did.

Once again, when one talks about energy, one talks about vibration. And energy can never be stationary at any point of time but it can appear to freeze under a special circumstance described as above. In other words, when there are opposing forces, there would be vibration. In the absence of opposing forces, vibration would cease to exist i.e. it is considered to be blown-off but not annihilated. This means in the absence of vibration, energy would still exist but it seems to freeze due to homologous force arising.

In the Buddhist context, there are two opposing forces arising in the dependent nature i.e. the force of Awakening (an inward tendency force) and the force of Ignorance (an outward tendency force). For an ignorant being, during a disintegrating process, the elements of prevailing consciousness or so-called the ‘chain of consciousness’ would die out and the force of Ignorance would overcome the force of Awakening. The elements of subtle consciousness would then liberate into fragments. The amount of liberated fragments is very much dependent on the level of Ignorance or Awakening within the being. And for an ignorant being, the level of Ignorance would surpass the level of Awakening and this would mean the intensity of Ignorance is higher than the intensity of Awakening. A higher intensity of Ignorance would mean a higher intensity of becoming. A higher intensity of becoming would mean a higher amount of liberated fragments. On the other hand, for a fully awakened being, the force of Ignorance would be blown-off (cease to exist) completely. The remaining force of Awakening i.e. an inward tendency force would conquest in full scale and thus conjuring up a circumstance that is known as the black hole of emptiness i.e. the eternal bliss of nibbāna.

As a conclusion, nibbāna is a completely neutralised state of affairs that is boundless, timeless and permanent. The ultimate goal in the Buddhist practice is to quest for an everlasting happiness that is unconditional via enlightenment. While enlightenment is about realisation, wisdom is about applying it into one’s daily perspectives and decision making, wholesomely. Therefore, if one wishes to gain enlightenment and wisdom, one would need to walk the walk and not talk the talk. In other words, enlightenment can never be achieved through desire for it is a mere intention of building castles in the air. Buddhism is about the sheer determination to pull one’s act together to end the state of suffering conclusively and not just blowing hot air.

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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:59 am 
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Berry wrote:
dude wrote:
In that case, what do you make of this sutra passage :
"Then he proceeds to the perception of emptiness; 'there is nothing'
"Then he proceeds to the state of non perception
"Then he proceeds to the state of neither perception nor non perception
"The he proceeds to the state of 'The work is done. The holy life has been lived. There is no more coming to any state of existence."


Could you provide the source of your quote, please dude ?

:reading:


I quoted it from memory, but this passage from the Nirvana Sutra describes the same hierarchy of jhanas :

Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Now, then, monks, I exhort you: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about completion by being heedful." Those were the Tathagata's last words.

Then the Blessed One entered the first jhana. Emerging from that he entered the second jhana. Emerging from that, he entered the third... the fourth jhana... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Emerging from that, he entered the cessation of perception & feeling.

Then Ven. Ananda said to Ven. Anuruddha, "Ven. Anuruddha,[9] the Blessed One is totally unbound."

"No, friend Ananda. The Blessed One isn't totally unbound. He has entered the cessation of perception & feeling."

Then the Blessed One, emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, entered the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Emerging from that, he entered the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the fourth jhana... the third... the second... the first jhana. Emerging from the first jhana he entered the second... the third... the fourth jhana. Emerging from the fourth jhana, he immediately was totally Unbound.


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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:54 am 
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Nir means no. Vana means waves. Silence. Stillness. It is the minds true nature this. It is not something to be gained or made. It is omnipresent.


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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:51 am 
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This nir and vana expression is great explanation, which seems to clarify in simple words. Not to be conditioned by waves.

:meditate:

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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:25 am 
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lobster wrote:
flowerbudh wrote:
Nirvana is the highest happiness.


The Buddha 'resided' or rested in Nirvana, an awake state, freed from suffering. :meditate:

If you want to go there for a holiday,


You can go to a kind of nirvana "on a holiday". Bhikkhu Buddhadasa said in "Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree" that (possibly deep?) samadhi is a kind of foretaste of nirvana. Since nibbana/nirvana is primarily a Sravaka school concern, I would recommend taking a look at this very accessible book.

Kirt

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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:00 pm 
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takso, will you tell me more about the inward force i.e. Awakening?

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 Post subject: Re: Locality of nibbanna
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:26 pm 
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I believe Nirvana is the state of equanimity, joy and unconditional love.
Namu Amida Butsu

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So, bhikkhus, you should train in this way: The heart-deliverance of loving-kindness will be maintained in being and made much of by us, used as our vehicle, used as our foundation, established, consolidated, and properly managed. That is how you should train
Samyutta Nikaya 20:3


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