Buddhism is peaceful?

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Re: Buddhism is peaceful?

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:37 pm

As I go back over the pages of this thread, there is a lot of Pabongkha bashing going on.


We cannot rewrite history. If it is baseless name-calling and tar and feathering like in the "Public Announcement", then it could be construed "pabongkha-bashing". If it is a recounting of historical events and sectarian language in Pabongkha's own works, it is simply a relaying of information. We cannot re-write history in order to be respectful of lineage gurus.

I encouraged Caz, who is young, many many times to learn some basic written Tibetan so he could read the collected works of Pabongkhapa for himself as well as the relevant historical documents, or at least plug them into a dictionary. That way he would have an informed opinion, rather than simply going on "Gen so-and-so told me Geshe so-and-so said this" and using that as a basis for what he believes.

My feeling (correct me if I'm wrong) is that Caz would not be encouraged to learn Tibetan within your organization, because then he might be in a position to know more, or have more access to resources, than the leadership.

All I'm asking Caz to do is cast a wider net to develop his opinions rather than going on blind faith and emotional devotion. That is just fundamentalism.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
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Re: Buddhism is peaceful?

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:38 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:who is your guru?


I'm not even allowed to say his name on this board because it's against the TOS to even mention my tradition or my Guru. So much for non-sectarianism!
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Re: Buddhism is peaceful?

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:40 pm

Please don't play the victim when there are several anti Dalai Lama websites sponsored by your organization, and many Buddhist message boards with moderator positions dominated by students of your centres.
The fact that those sites are not as popular as dharma wheel says more about the lack of appeal of your message than it does about any so-called sectarianism here.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
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Re: Buddhism is peaceful?

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:46 pm

In the interests of inter-sect harmony, let's not go any further with the justifications and accusations. It's not going to achieve anything.

I take your point about being actively involved on DW in other areas and it's a fair comment. I'm going to rectify it, in fact I've already started.

All the best.
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Re: Buddhism is peaceful?

Postby Caz » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:45 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:Tsongkhapafan I agree. But the "Public Announcement" shows a sort of tar and feather through conjecture operation, and it has gone too far. Things were quiet, and improving, but someone's agenda has again opened the floodgates to projection and misunderstanding.

I just really couldn't believe what I read, and I don't think I misunderstood it (English is my first language). It's not a projection either, it is there in black and white.

Desperate and very, very dark. A final grasping of straws because of being completely invested in a cause... and in the meantime not caring who it hurts or tears down because the ends justify the means.

I would love to focus on dharma and post on various threads on this website, but you and Caz seem to constantly be involved in threads where the discussion starts to veer towards you know what. I don't see much posting by either of you in other topics.


Khedrup, no one is talking on this thread about the "public announcement". My own feeling is that would have been a reason for it which I do not know - perhaps there were renewed death threats against my Guru as there have been in the past.

As I go back over the pages of this thread, there is a lot of Pabongkha bashing going on. You know how upset you become when the Dalai Lama is criticised but the same courtesy is not afforded to those who have the illustrious Pabongkha as their lineage Guru. I can see that Caz got upset by this, and I don't blame him. Is DW open to all Buddhists or only those who agree with the Dalai Lama and who bash anyone who might not agree with him? I see this on other threads as well. It's like some kind of witch-hunt to 'purify' Tibetan Buddhism of the evil demon on sectarianism by being sectarian! How exactly does that work?

No one criticises the Dalai Lama on this board - no one is allowed to because they will be instantly banned, but other Lamas are fair game? Is that not attachment and aversion, the very inner poisons that Buddha advised us to abandon in all his teachings? If Buddhists like ourselves cannot at least recognise these poisons in our mind and work to remove them instead of displaying them in petty squabbles on this board, why would anyone reading this be inspired to practise Buddhism at all? I see that you're interested in inter-sect harmony, so let's go from there. Perhaps we should stop this discussion here.


6 or 7 pages of how people saying how evil they think Pabongkha is. I don't usually participate in these boards because they are putrid and rank with bile of false and malicious speech. :popcorn:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Buddhism is peaceful?

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:51 am

So why are you participating here if it is so putrid?
Go back to your board where you are moderator and head honcho and can set all the rules you like.
Is it simply that the board is not active enough to maintain your attention so you feel compelled to come here, despite how putrid it is?
Generally if I consider I place putrid I don't visit it very often.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
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Re: Buddhism is peaceful?

Postby Caz » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:53 am

JKhedrup wrote:So why are you participating here if it is so putrid?
Go back to your board where you are moderator and head honcho and can set all the rules you like.
Is it simply that the board is not active enough to maintain your attention so you feel compelled to come here, despite how putrid it is?
Generally if I consider I place putrid I don't visit it very often.


I just feel compelled to make a positive contribution to something filled with negativity :) :hug:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
Caz
 
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Re: Buddhism is peaceful?

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:57 am

That positive contribution would be more meaningful if you did the work necessary to have an informed opinion. How did the staff at your centre react to my suggestion that you learn Tibetan? Have you read any scholarly research on Phabongkha or that period of Tibetan history? Have you looked at the opinions of other lamas of the period? Have you tried to read the relevant portions of his collected works?

In other words, have you done anything to build your own opinion of this issue or are you simply taking someone's word for it because they claim your guru says so?

You owe it to yourself to get the tools necessary to develop an informed opinion. I am not asking you to agree with me, only to challenge yourself to develop your own ideas because to be honest it seems you just repeat what you are told.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
JKhedrup
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Location: the Netherlands and India

Re: Buddhism is peaceful?

Postby Caz » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:04 am

JKhedrup wrote:That positive contribution would be more meaningful if you did the work necessary to have an informed opinion. How did the staff at your centre react to my suggestion that you learn Tibetan? Have you read any scholarly research on Phabongkha or that period of Tibetan history? Have you looked at the opinions of other lamas of the period? Have you tried to read the relevant portions of his collected works?

In other words, have you done anything to build your own opinion of this issue or are you simply taking someone's word for it because they claim your guru says so?

You owe it to yourself to get the tools necessary to develop an informed opinion. I am not asking you to agree with me, only to challenge yourself to develop your own ideas because to be honest it seems you just repeat what you are told.


I have no Interest in learning to view a lineage guru as evil. :cry:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
Caz
 
Posts: 539
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Re: Buddhism is peaceful?

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:11 am

You are responding without reading my comments Caz. It is like you are on auto pilot mode. Look what I said:

I am not asking you to agree with me, only to challenge yourself to develop your own ideas because to be honest it seems you just repeat what you are told.


No one is asking you view anything as evil.
In fact, I am asking you to read Pabongkha's collected works.

It may surprise you, but many of his teachings are actually not available in your tradition. His vast works on Chittamani Tara, the HYT aspect of Tara, Solitary Hero Yamantaka, Hayagriva, Kalarupa and many other philosophical works on top of that.

It is really sad, you are refusing to accumulate the tools necessary to develop an informed opinion. Really not Lama Tsongkhapa's style at all- toeing the party line. He studied and learned all sorts of schools. And in the great monasteries the monks have to learn those various views too.

Seems to me you are interested in being part of a crowd rather than doing the work necessary to think independently.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
JKhedrup
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Posts: 1920
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Location: the Netherlands and India

Re: Buddhism is peaceful?

Postby michaelb » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:22 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:As I go back over the pages of this thread, there is a lot of Pabongkha bashing going on.

caz wrote:6 or 7 pages of how people saying how evil they think Pabongkha is.

The comments on Pabongkha were first raised by me not to "bash" him but to look at how we respond to the more problematic past lineage lamas. There are many to choose from. The thread started by asking about the Fifth Dalai Lama. I think Pabongkha is more interesting because he is more recent, his sectarian views are well documented and he casts a long shadow over modern Tibetan Buddhism.

In a way, the discussion played out on this thread mirrors the tensions that Pabongkha and his comtempories wrangled over in early 20th century Tibet. Pabongkha's supporters advocate a kind of "pure" Gelug tradition, unadulterated with anything other than Pabongkha's own version of the Gelug tradition. His critics embrace a more eccumenical approach, where nonsectarianism extends to taking whatever teachings one considers to be of value, irrespective of their lineage source. In Kham in the 19th and early 20th centuries, the Rime movement, supported by the royal house of Dege, spread rapidly and led to a renaissance in study and practice amongst all four traditions, but especially Kagyu, Nyingma and Sakya. The Gelug response came in the form of Pabongkha's conservatism, and he sought to sure up the Gelug hegemonic power by dissuading Gelugs from adopting a Rime approach and converting nonGelug gompas to bring them under Lhasa's power.

If we accept that this argument is just about whether we prefer either one of these positions, the conservative Gelugpas or the eccumenical Rimepas, we can bypass a lot of nonsense and just get on with what we have chosen to do. It is not that either position is intrinsically correct, but just different and may be more or less suited to our predispositions.
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