Kaliyuga

[spiritnoname]

Nuns make more mistakes

You know, that could be kind of true. Buddha Shakyamuni would not establish a rule until there was a need for it.

Most of the Bhikkuni's extra vows are for their protection though. At least one instance of a nun being raped in the suttas.

[Tilopa]

Are we in a degenerate age?

Are you kidding? Read the newspapers.

What the Hindus call Kali Yuga is known in the Tibetan tradition as "The age of 5 degenerations"

These are degenerations of:

1. life-span - the shortening of the (maximum) length of life.
2. time - the decline in the quality of things. Foods are less savory and nutritious, crops fail to ripen, natural disasters and illness abound
3. disturbing emotions - attachment, hatred, ignorance, pride and jealousy are exceptionally strong in the minds of living beings.
4. views - there is a decline in the virtues of the monastic sangha and wrong views proliferate.
5. experience - refers to a decline in physical form, intellectual capacities and good health of humans

[Indrajala]

Are we in a degenerate age?

Are you kidding? Read the newspapers.

What the Hindus call Kali Yuga is known in the Tibetan tradition as "The age of 5 degenerations"

These are degenerations of:

1. life-span - the shortening of the (maximum) length of life.
2. time - the decline in the quality of things. Foods are less savory and nutritious, crops fail to ripen, natural disasters and illness abound
3. disturbing emotions - attachment, hatred, ignorance, pride and jealousy are exceptionally strong in the minds of living beings.
4. views - there is a decline in the virtues of the monastic sangha and wrong views proliferate.
5. experience - refers to a decline in physical form, intellectual capacities and good health of humans

That sums up the direction we're going at the moment.

Some might think our lifespan is becoming longer, but consider that the average life expectancy only takes into account your expected lifespan from the day you are born, and not conceived.

With the increase of abortion in recent times if we took into account average life expectancy from conception, the likelihood of an individual dying prematurely would drastically increase and presumably the statistics would have to take that into account thus decreasing the expected number of years on average one lives. One country to consider is China where abortion is encouraged and even enforced by the state which rules over a billion humans. The life expectancy on paper might appear to be increasing, but if you factored in all the humans killed before birth the statistic might look grim.

Moreover, as global warming progresses and sea levels increase, we can expect to see issues with food production in the coming times. Also, Monsanto and other companies produced self-destroying seeds that gradually dominating our whole system of agriculture around the planet.

[Astus]

There's an important note at the end of the Wikipedia article on life expectancy: Life expectancy vs. life span. Same article says that life expectancy in the early 20th century was 30-45 which means that our grandparents and greatgrandparents should have never known us.

There's an interesting argument in Tai Situpa's Introduction to Mahamudra:

But there is another side: if you have faith in the Buddha, if you have faith in the Buddha’s teaching, and if you have faith in the practice of dharma then you don’t have to know anything. If you practice with faith then everything works. You don’t have to know ground, path and fruition. Whether you know it or not, it is there. When you know, nothing new appears, and when you don’t know, nothing is disappearing. So you really don’t have to know, but these days it is important to know. Why? Because this is a degenerating time.

I am not a negative person. I don’t consider myself a pessimistic person. Actually I consider myself having some weakness of optimism [laughter], you know? So maybe my problem is optimism, not pessimism. But the fact of the matter is that this is a degenerating time; so, many things are getting worse, and many things are getting better. But it is those things that make us worse that are getting better, and those things that make us better that are getting worse. In that way, it’s getting better for worse. That’s true, I think. I could be wrong; I have the right to be wrong (right?), but I think that’s true.

One thing that really proves this to me is that, these days, anything that is sacred and divine needs a lot of explanation, and people don’t believe it, but anything that is not sacred and not divine doesn’t need any explanation, and everybody believes it. For example, many wars are being fought right now, all over the world, and most of the people that are fighting there don’t know why. Only the ones who instigated the wars know, but the other people don’t know. They just believe; so they follow and get themselves killed, or they kill other people and destroy so many things. Then think about making money: it’s good that people make money, but lots of the ways that people make money are really other people’s plans, and other people’s ideas that they just follow. Many people just follow, and sometimes they get lucky, and they make some money, but many people are actually just donating a lot of money to those people who plan those things. They lose money, but they just go on, one loss after another. So in that way, they really don’t need a lot of explanation. Also, with taking drugs, and all these kind of things: even if somebody explains so hard they still don’t believe that person. They can see themselves getting crazy. They see themselves dying, and they see their brain becoming like a scrambled egg: it’s not working anymore, not connected anymore, all separate, you know? One part of the brain doesn’t function with another part; so two and two doesn’t make four anymore Two and two is maybe five or three or six. They see that they are confused, but still they go for it. They don’t need explanation, and they don’t need clarification. Then also with politics: many of the politicians, I think, don’t even know what they are doing. They just believe, and they go for it. Of course all politicians are not bad; many of them are very good. If there was no policy, then of course, the world would be in chaos, but what I am saying is that nothing requires more explanation than dharma. So when it comes to dharma, everybody wants all the detailed explanations. Not only once, but two, three or four times, you know? But everything else doesn’t need explanation, and people just follow. For example, with fashion: today you see a funny hat, which I think is a terrible hat, but tomorrow so many people are buying it and going crazy for it. So that way, everybody believes in things without having to know, except when it comes to something that is sacred and divine. This proves that this is a degenerating time. If it was not a degenerating time it would be the other way around, so that the things that are less meaningful, and even harmful, such as war, should need more explanation. People would find it very difficult to accept and very hard to participate. Something that is divine and profound, like dharma, would be easy for people to follow and easy to believe. If that happens then it shows that it is not a degenerating time but a generating time or a good time. So in this degenerating time, the clear understanding of ground, path and fruition will help us all, and will also equip us to help others. Because, after all, the basis of the mahamudra is Mahayana, and the purpose of mahayana is to help sentient beings. This is the foundation of all the highest teaching of Lord Buddha.

[norman]

On commenting the signs of the end times in Matthew 24: 3-14, Julian, Emperor of Rome, 361-363 AD, apparently wrote:

"Such things have often happened and still happen, and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

As I read more of traditional Indian (not necessarily "Hindu" because such a concept only began in the 19th century) ideas on the kaliyuga I find myself thinking how it describes our present day. The quote above accurately describes what is happening to our world. The idea of kaliyuga actually helps in explaining a lot of things in the world and in human history.

[Indrajala]

On commenting the signs of the end times in Matthew 24: 3-14, Julian, Emperor of Rome, 361-363 AD, apparently wrote:

"Such things have often happened and still happen, and how can these be signs of the end of the world?"

As I read more of traditional Indian (not necessarily "Hindu" because such a concept only began in the 19th century) ideas on the kaliyuga I find myself thinking how it describes our present day. The quote above accurately describes what is happening to our world. The idea of kaliyuga actually helps in explaining a lot of things in the world and in human history.

That has nothing to do with what I said.

I'm talking about Indian conceptions of kaliyuga, not Christian interpretations of End Times. They are entirely different ideas. Kaliyuga is where there is degeneration as part of predictable historical cycles, not the end of the world. It has nothing to do with Roman Christianity.

[norman]

You sure it's got nothing to do with what you said?

You can ascribe those signs to any age, and it probably already has been. Such things have often happened and still happen. According to my understanding the Kali Yuga spans over 432,000 human years. Quoting the wikipedia article on the subject, it sums up some of the attributes of the Kali Yuga in relation with human events:

# Avarice and wrath will be common. Humans will openly display animosity towards each other.
# Ignorance of dharma will occur.
# People will have thoughts of murder for no justification and they will see nothing wrong with that mind-set.
# Lust will be viewed as socially acceptable, and sexual intercourse will be seen as the central requirement of life.
# Sin will increase exponentially, whilst virtue will fade and cease to flourish.
# People will take vows only to break them soon after.
# People will become addicted to intoxicating drinks and drugs.
# Men will find their jobs stressful and will go to retreats to escape their work.

Sure, this fits like a glove to this day and age, but it could just as well be applied to the Spanish Inquistion, the Dark Ages, the Third Reich, The Spanish Colonization, the Emperor Nero's reign, the three first centuries of Christian Persecution, etc. Why should our age be any different? Because it's worse now? We could just as well apply the Kali Yuga to all of human history and be done with it.

Whether or not the Kali Yuga is true is beside the point: it has the same function as any objective concept. It is sought to explain a phenomenon that we perceive as real. So what makes it real? The phenomena, or the perceiving of them?

That has nothing to do with what I said.

I'm talking about Indian conceptions of kaliyuga, not Christian interpretations of End Times. They are entirely different ideas. Kaliyuga is where there is degeneration as part of predictable historical cycles, not the end of the world. It has nothing to do with Roman Christianity.

[Indrajala]

You sure it's got nothing to do with what you said?

Yes I am quite sure.

You can ascribe those signs to any age, and it probably already has been.

Not really. There are very clear indications and symptoms of the age that are outlined in various scriptures.

Such things have often happened and still happen. According to my understanding the Kali Yuga spans over 432,000 human years. Quoting the wikipedia article on the subject, it sums up some of the attributes of the Kali Yuga in relation with human affairs:

You would be wise not to cite Wikipedia when it comes to a discussion of religion.

This online source would prove much more reliable:

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam

As to some specific symptoms of the age consider the following:

SB 12.2.3: Men and women will live together merely because of superficial attraction, and success in business will depend on deceit. Womanliness and manliness will be judged according to one's expertise in sex, and a man will be known as a brāhmaṇa just by his wearing a thread.

In previous times marriage was arranged not by a couple but by their parents and extended relatives. This generally is applicable to most cultures in Asia and even Europe. In our present modern age the tendency is for men and women to live together based on mutual attraction to one another rather than by decree of their families. As this line points out, business is based on deceit. Look at the state of the present world economy. Consider how advertising manipulates and deceives people into buying products that are harmful to them, others, animals and the environment. In much of modern culture your attractiveness is decided by your sex appeal. This is all quite different from pre-modern Indian cultures as well as pre-modern East Asian and European cultures.

SB 12.2.4: A person's spiritual position will be ascertained merely according to external symbols, and on that same basis people will change from one spiritual order to the next. A person's propriety will be seriously questioned if he does not earn a good living. And one who is very clever at juggling words will be considered a learned scholar.

SB 12.2.5: A person will be judged unholy if he does not have money, and hypocrisy will be accepted as virtue. Marriage will be arranged simply by verbal agreement, and a person will think he is fit to appear in public if he has merely taken a bath.

The Mahabharata likewise has some descriptions of the symptoms of the age:

And all men towards the end of the Yuga will become members of one common order, without distinction of any kind. And sires will not forgive sons, and sons will not forgive sires. And when the end approaches, wives will not wait upon and serve their husbands. And at such a time men will seek those countries where wheat and barley form the staple food. And, O monarch, both men and women will become perfectly free in their behaviour and will not tolerate one another's acts. And, O Yudhishthira, the whole world will be mlecchified.

This remark about people fleeing to countries where wheat and barley form the staple food is interesting. There is massive immigration to North America and Europe where wheat is the staple food.

Sure, this fits like a glove to this day and age, but it could just as well be applied to the Spanish Inquistion, the Dark Ages, the Third Reich, The Spanish Colonization, the Emperor Nero's reign, the three first centuries of Christian Persecution, etc. Why should our age be any different? Because it's worse now? We could just as well apply the Kali Yuga to all of human history and be done with it.

Technically speaking Kaliyuga began on February 18th 3102 BCE when the seven planets including the sun and moon could not be seen as they were lined up in one direction on the other side of the planet. This is indeed a rare occurrence in astronomical history and can be verified as such.

Read a few pages of Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy by Richard L. Thompson at the following link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=9oi64rTVwNMC&lpg=PA19&dq=kaliyuga&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q&f=false

The point then is that Kaliyuga has already started some several thousand years ago, but as time goes on the symptoms of the age will worsen and become more pronounced. If this is truly the case then until the next age begins things will only get worse and not better.

[Will]

Huifeng:
Don't worry! The Srimad Bhagavatam is post Buddhist, which also makes it definitely post Veda and so technically Vedanta. And where does it get these ideas from? Bronkhorst points out that (2007: 70-71):

A cyclic notion of time, in which kalpas, yugas and other time
units playa role, is a common feature of classical Hinduism from a
certain date onward. It is not known to the Vedic texts. Among the
earliest texts in this tradition that show familiarity with the concept
we must count the Mahabharata.
...
If, therefore, Gonzalez-Reimann's hypothesis is correct-and he argues
his case convincingly-we may have to see in the cyclic vision of
time an element that entered into the Brahmanical tradition from
the culture of Greater Magadha at a time when the core of the
Mahabharata (its first written version) was already in existence.


In other words, these Vedantic texts got the idea from the Jainas, Ajivikas and Buddhists in the first place! Though of course, the term "Kali-yuga" itself, based on the goddess Kali, comes quite a bit later than these traditions.

I do not know the age of the Rigveda but at 1.164.11-14 there are verses giving a "cyclic vision of time". See V.S. Agrawala The Thousand-Syllabled Speech. I doubt periodicity is confined to any single religion.

[Ogyen]

Despite having seen this topic float around forums, it never seems to accomplish much...

are we in a degenerate age? Are we not? Having no recollection from any time before this life, and being of this age and era, the most I strain of the past is through history. But hindsight is 20/20.

so then I wonder, "Does it matter?" if this is a degenerate age? My dog still begs for food, driven by his senses, the world has grown more violent, bigger in population, smaller in mystery, and a kind of indifference that has emerged makes life certainly more chaotic.

But are things worse than they ever were? I am not convinced. Technology has always been with man, it's part of his thinking. So has suffering increased because of iphones and gucci purses, even egyptian nobility in the age of pharaohs had its own "degeneration"... so on what scale to we measure "degenerate times?" what is the unifying criteria that gives us the ability to compare experientially what we read about and study in history?

I don't know, I plainly admit I'm ignorant.

I do know: There is great suffering. This is the ONLY reality we know, there is no alternate world we can compare to, because we are finite beings who live no more than 130 years, and to get to 70 alone is quite enough a feat that many don't. Mankind has been around a long time and keeps stumbling because we live a short time, and if we can't pass on our realization, the next generation keeps falling on itself.

Is this degeneration? Or continued samsara that has always been since the desire to be of any sentient being?

Do the teachers measure this or that time? Could Padmasambhava imagine a world like.... Los Angeles 2010? I just wonder since humans in general tend to create a narrative around everything, I wonder if it is truly that much worse, of if the same degeneration has simply taken new forms and those same teachers would shrug at any evolution of the same seed, because they would see it just as more of the same old suffering?


D. Ogyen

p.s. millennia later, old generations still complain about the new generation, teenagers are always troublemakers, so what's changed beyond the aesthetic and expression of suffering?

[Indrajala]

so then I wonder, "Does it matter?" if this is a degenerate age? My dog still begs for food, driven by his senses, the world has grown more violent, bigger in population, smaller in mystery, and a kind of indifference that has emerged makes life certainly more chaotic.

But are things worse than they ever were? I am not convinced. Technology has always been with man, it's part of his thinking. So has suffering increased because of iphones and gucci purses, even egyptian nobility in the age of pharaohs had its own "degeneration"... so on what scale to we measure "degenerate times?" what is the unifying criteria that gives us the ability to compare experientially what we read about and study in history?

From a position of privilege in a first world country there is not really that much sense of decay in the world.

However, much of the rest of the world, which was once prosperous and suffered no want of essential resources, now continually suffers famine, war and exploitation. Moreover, with climate change we can predict that in our own 'first world' countries lack of food will be an inevitable reality. Your dog will beg for food you cannot provide it.

What does it matter? If you foresee a world getting worse and worse coupled with famine and chaos, would you bother worrying about investment, having children, owning a house or other mundane activities?

Do the teachers measure this or that time? Could Padmasambhava imagine a world like.... Los Angeles 2010? I just wonder since humans in general tend to create a narrative around everything, I wonder if it is truly that much worse, of if the same degeneration has simply taken new forms and those same teachers would shrug at any evolution of the same seed, because they would see it just as more of the same old suffering?

Humans also have a tendency of ignoring undesirable realities when they don't for the moment directly affect them.

p.s. millennia later, old generations still complain about the new generation, teenagers are always troublemakers, so what's changed beyond the aesthetic and expression of suffering?

Look at the specific symptoms of the age and compare it to previous times.

[norman]

So in your regard you find justification in the truthfulness of the concept of the Kali Yuga in the phenomena ascribed to it, rather than the act of perceiving-the-Yuga-as-a-phenomenal reality? Similarly if it's not a case of it being true or not, then what's the point in looking for signs?

We could look into all the books in the world, and weigh data to each other and still not get any closer to any satisfactory conclusion. The truthfulness or reality of these data, as such, are not based on the phenomena in themselves ("success in business will depend on deceit"), but their perceiving of them.

What is being perceived as a Yuga (historical, or otherwise) is NOT as a Yuga (concept), nor will it ever be anything else, i.e. other than conceptual. The signs aren't evidence of anything, they are aspects that make up the idea, as such (the Yuga).

In previous times marriage was arranged not by a couple but by their parents and extended relatives. This generally is applicable to most cultures in Asia and even Europe. In our present modern age the tendency is for men and women to live together based on mutual attraction to one another rather than by decree of their families. As this line points out, business is based on deceit. Look at the state of the present world economy. Consider how advertising manipulates and deceives people into buying products that are harmful to them, others, animals and the environment. In much of modern culture your attractiveness is decided by your sex appeal. This is all quite different from pre-modern Indian cultures as well as pre-modern East Asian and European cultures.

[fragrant herbs]

deleted

[Indrajala]

So in your regard you find justification in the truthfulness of the concept of the Kali Yuga in the phenomena ascribed to it, rather than the act of perceiving-the-Yuga-as-a-phenomenal reality? Similarly if it's not a case of it being true or not, then what's the point in looking for signs?

We could look into all the books in the world, and weigh data to each other and still not get any closer to any satisfactory conclusion. The truthfulness or reality of these data, as such, are not based on the phenomena in themselves ("success in business will depend on deceit"), but their perceiving of them.

What is being perceived as a Yuga (historical, or otherwise) is NOT as a Yuga (concept), nor will it ever be anything else, i.e. other than conceptual. The signs aren't evidence of anything, they are aspects that make up the idea, as such (the Yuga).

Now you're just playing with words and making little sense. You didn't address any of my points and your remarks here leave me baffled as to what you're attempting to say.

I refuted your earlier assertions and demonstrated clearly what the general sentiments in traditional Indian thought have been about the Kaliyuga.

If you don't think there is any worth to such ideas, that's your prerogative. However, many individuals see some worth in considering these ideas and what the implications are. Whether you enjoy dismantling concepts or not, you still have to live in the conventional world of ideas and phenomena. This conventional world we live in is said by some to be in the Kaliyuga which has specific symptoms that will worsen as time goes on. The implications of this are worth considering if you plan to live in this world for any length of time.

As I said above -- if you foresee the world suffering further famine, chaos, war, instability and spiritual decline, would you bother worrying about pensions, having children, owning a house or other mundane pursuits?

This isn't intellectual masturbation. These ideas can have a really clear implication on how you live your life.

[fragrant herbs]

deleted

[norman]

I feel we won't get anywhere with this discussion, but I'll give it another go.

Do you think that perceiving the phenomena (the symptoms) associated with the idea of a Kali Yuga justifies the concept, rather than the perceiving of the concept as such (with all the associations you attribute to it)?

The signs or symptoms aren't evidence of the factuality of such a notion (the Kali Yuga), they are parts or aspects that make up the idea, as such. Therefore, the perceived "factuality" or "reality" of these signs are not based on the symptoms themselves, (for instance "success in business will depend on deceit" - Śrīmad Bhāgavatam), but the act of perceiving them.

Whatever evidence we may find are not based on a "troubled world" out there, they are inherent in our perception of such a concept.

As for the points you're referring to, aren't they the symptoms that I have been addressing? All the rest, the importance of believing it, the implications it may have on ones life, etc, are there to fulfill "the picture", to make it "feel real".

You imply it's reality as a fact because you associate it with what you perceive as symptoms.
My point is to elucidate the perceiving of the concept (in mind), where the associations and symptoms so called, only make up the "parts", its "embodiment" as an actual idea.

Now you're just playing with words and making little sense. You didn't address any of my points and your remarks here leave me baffled as to what you're attempting to say.

I refuted your earlier assertions and demonstrated clearly what the general sentiments in traditional Indian thought have been about the Kaliyuga.

If you don't think there is any worth to such ideas, that's your prerogative. However, many individuals see some worth in considering these ideas and what the implications are. Whether you enjoy dismantling concepts or not, you still have to live in the conventional world of ideas and phenomena. This conventional world we live in is said by some to be in the Kaliyuga which has specific symptoms that will worsen as time goes on. The implications of this are worth considering if you plan to live in this world for any length of time.

As I said above -- if you foresee the world suffering further famine, chaos, war, instability and spiritual decline, would you bother worrying about pensions, having children, owning a house or other mundane pursuits?

This isn't intellectual masturbation. These ideas can have a really clear implication on how you live your life.

[Indrajala]

We can easily get caught up in such prophecies and lose our balance in them. I remember a time when I believed that the end of the world was coming in 1975 as taught by my religion, and so we were taught to not have children because of this. I dind't have children, but not for that reason, but a lot of people didn't have children for that reason, and they didn't even bother to go to college in order to get a good job, nor did they bother with buying a home, but this same scenero gets played out time and time again in history. So I understand Norman's posts. And then when 1975 came and went many left the religion and many lamented that they lost out on having a family and a good job.

Again, Kaliyuga is not a prophecy concerning the end of the world. You cannot equate it to theories concerning the end of the world.

It is merely a cycle in history that will end in the emergence of a better era. However, for the foreseeable future things will worsen.

If you want to believe the world is fine then by all means attempt to enjoy the regularly scheduled samsaric programming. It might prove disappointing in the end.

Just looking at the situation in the world, you can expect things to get worse and worse. It isn't human conflict itself that troubles me the most, but climate change. Consider the following points outlined on this page:

A stunning year in climate science reveals that human civilization is on the precipice

http://climateprogress.org/2010/11/15/y ... imategate/

For example...

1. Nature: “Global warming blamed for 40% decline in the ocean’s phytoplankton”: “Microscopic life crucial to the marine food chain is dying out. The consequences could be catastrophic.”

If confirmed, it may represent the single most important finding of the year in climate science. Seth Borenstein of the AP explains, “plant plankton found in the world’s oceans are crucial to much of life on Earth. They are the foundation of the bountiful marine food web, produce half the world’s oxygen and suck up harmful carbon dioxide.” Boris Worm, a marine biologist and co-author of the study said, “We found that temperature had the best power to explain the changes.” He noted, “If this holds up, something really serious is underway and has been underway for decades. I’ve been trying to think of a biological change that’s bigger than this and I can’t think of one.”

With climate change you can expect to see food shortages, flooding, unusual weather and any number of forms of environmental retribution which will likely spark tension which leads to further human conflict, fear and tyranny.

If you want to pretend none of this will effect you that's your prerogative.

I think much of this was predicted and foreseen. Shakyamuni himself, while he did not use such terms as 'kaliyuga', still predicted the demise of his teaching in the world as well as the deterioration of society. Call it the dharma ending age or kaliyuga, it doesn't matter. The reality is that we live in a degenerate age. That isn't even a religious idea -- look at the state of climate change, pollution, conflict and the deterioration of spirituality in the world.

My own take on all of this is that it doesn't really matter. What matters is that you do what is best for you and others, but don't give up a house or a job because of this age. You have to live.

Sure, but why invest countless hours of your life mowing the lawn?

I spent maybe 10 years worrying about 1975. It came, and I lived. I was considered evil by my religion back then and so I going to die. Don't let that be you worrying about all of this. I suggest thinking about more positive things. I hope this post doesn't bother you, it is just that I have lost faith in all predictions for the future by anyone and everyone. Kali Yuga means nothing to me. Neither does Matthew or Nostradamous.

I never said we're all going to die. You're mistaking the meaning of Kaliyuga and reading it through a Christian lens.

[Indrajala]

I feel we won't get anywhere with this discussion, but I'll give it another go.

Do you think that perceiving the phenomena (the symptoms) associated with the idea of a Kali Yuga justifies the concept, rather than the perceiving of the concept as such (with all the associations you attribute to it)?

Either way you look at it (from the concept to the associated symptoms or the associated symptoms to the concept), it is just an abstract idea. A classification. A word. A designation. An appellation.

If you want to reduce and disassemble the idea, like any abstract idea it holds no intrinsic quality and dissolves under analysis. That same analysis can be applied to anything including the idea that everything is fine.

However, in conventional reality we work with ideas and words. Kaliyuga is just a classification, but I feel it to be a useful and valid one.

[norman]

The symptoms are inherent in the concept (it's what make it such, to begin with), the rest is a projection via that concept, your own personal colouring. It's the act of perceiv-ing that is significant, not that which is perceiv-ed.

"Conventional reality" (whatever your perceive it to be) are also part of that concept; it provides the stage for the symptoms, the scenery. As for the emotional investment in reacting to this notion, it's part of the identified personality. It's got nothing to do with a world "out there". Whatever we do, whatever we don't do, it's all just ego-tripping.

I haven't said a word about the world being fine. I could look into as many homepages, books, and other forms of media, and it wouldn't change a thing. It would simply be my concept, a pretty terrible one perhaps, but mine nevertheless.

Either way you look at it (from the concept to the associated symptoms or the associated symptoms to the concept), it is just an abstract idea. A classification. A word. A designation. An appellation.

If you want to reduce and disassemble the idea, like any abstract idea it holds no intrinsic quality and dissolves under analysis. That same analysis can be applied to anything including the idea that everything is fine.

However, in conventional reality we work with ideas and words. Kaliyuga is just a classification, but I feel it to be a useful and valid one.

[Indrajala]

The symptoms are inherent in the concept, the rest is a projection via that concept, your own personal colouring. It's the act of perceiv-ing that is significant, not that which is perceiv-ed.

"Conventional reality" (whatever your perceive it to be) are also part of that concept; it provides the stage for the symptoms, the scenery. As for the emotional investment in reacting to this notion, it's part of the identified personality. It's got nothing to do with a world "out there". Whatever we do, whatever we don't do, it's all just ego-tripping.

I haven't said a word about the world being fine. I could look into as many homepages, books, and other forms of media, and it wouldn't change a thing. It would simply be my concept, a pretty terrible one perhaps, but mine nevertheless.

Either way you look at it (from the concept to the associated symptoms or the associated symptoms to the concept), it is just an abstract idea. A classification. A word. A designation. An appellation.

If you want to reduce and disassemble the idea, like any abstract idea it holds no intrinsic quality and dissolves under analysis. That same analysis can be applied to anything including the idea that everything is fine.

However, in conventional reality we work with ideas and words. Kaliyuga is just a classification, but I feel it to be a useful and valid one.

How does any of what you're saying contribute the conversation?