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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:17 pm 
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Jax wrote:
Following what "resonates" is our deep intuitive gift and capacity and should be heeded. Its following the heart instead of the head.
Romanticist drivel! Both the heart and head are equally necessary in order to achieve true liberation.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:11 am 
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Of late, this forum has seen quite a shift in content towards Dzogchen.

It seems that there is a corresponding shift in trolling patterns.

Predictable, maybe, but interesting. I wonder if search engines asked to seek out 'Dzogchen' now lead the trolls straight to this forum. If so, it's maybe flattering. ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:31 am 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
Of late, this forum has seen quite a shift in content towards Dzogchen. It seems that there is a corresponding shift in trolling patterns.

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so. :thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:33 am 
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Who the f... really cares anyway?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:40 pm 
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Off Topic Posts split: Dharma Wheel on Dharma Wheel....
Off Topic Posts split: Rebirth as a Rudra

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:02 am 
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In case anyone is still wondering whether he is "there," witness him explain, to an audience, that rape victims cause their misfortune, because they simply needed a "bumpier ride" to wake up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZu5bnabcfQ at 54:45

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:42 am 
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ay ay ay... :? Frankly he lost me me before he started talking...that cheesy grin.
It looks like its getting easier and easier to found a cult...
Which is worrying.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:21 am 
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Looks like Bentinho has gone through some changes.

Then (2011): 'So in this way you can also read any spiritual book you like, but with this clearly in mind, you will not be fooled by the author when he says you have to do something to get to a certain state, because you’ll realize that that would just be another state of mind, that would just be another experience. And it’s not about the experience. - Bentinho Massaro

Now (2013): As you start choosing your state of being moment by moment, you will soon reach a point of empowerment where you have remembered that your state of being truly is up to you and up to you only, and that all things in your life are derived from your state of being. Thus, you'll less and less choose the option that is unjoyful (worry, concern, believe in lack and separation, etc.) and more and more you'll choose the state of being that is infused with joy and trust in the lacklessness of Now - which contains All of creation and All possibilities. - Bentinho Massaro

Then: http://www.free-awareness.com/

Now: http://www.bentinhomassaro.com/store/

That 'free' awareness has really gone up in price.

(This thread is very interesting, so I created an account to be able to post here.)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:48 am 
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Simon E. wrote:
ay ay ay... :? Frankly he lost me me before he started talking...that cheesy grin.
It looks like its getting easier and easier to found a cult...
Which is worrying.


well, no.

All I have to say is that a teacher outside of traditional buddhism should not be judged on this forum by buddhist standards. I've seen this over and over in diff places. Any more than dzogchen teachings have anything to do with the essence and scent of dzogchen. I have experienced him in person... Seems to me that this is an entirely a self-referential discussion at this point, imo.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:08 am 
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Lindama wrote:
Simon E. wrote:
ay ay ay... :? Frankly he lost me me before he started talking...that cheesy grin.
It looks like its getting easier and easier to found a cult...
Which is worrying.


well, no.

All I have to say is that a teacher outside of traditional buddhism should not be judged on this forum by buddhist standards. I've seen this over and over in diff places. Any more than dzogchen teachings have anything to do with the essence and scent of dzogchen. I have experienced him in person... Seems to me that this is an entirely a self-referential discussion at this point, imo.


Isn't there a standard we can judge both buddhist and non-buddhist teachers on then? Seems to me they are all concerned with the human condition, so perhaps a human standard pertaining to that?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:17 pm 
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It seems to make sense to evaluate Buddhist teachers by Buddhist criteria, veterinarians by veterinarian criteria, bus drivers by bus driver criteria...

competence is competence, but what counts as competence in different contexts differs no?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:47 am 
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But might the point be something like: both (i.e. the Buddhist and non-Buddhist dharma teacher) are bus drivers, but maybe the kind of bus is different?

This is not erase the particular - and ways of judging it/them - but to recognise that on this matter at least, there is some kind of interesting relation between the particular and the universal.

:anjali:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:03 am 
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tobes wrote:
But might the point be something like: both (i.e. the Buddhist and non-Buddhist dharma teacher) are bus drivers, but maybe the kind of bus is different?

This is not erase the particular - and ways of judging it/them - but to recognise that on this matter at least, there is some kind of interesting relation between the particular and the universal.

:anjali:



Maybe it's more accurate to assume it may be two bus drivers: but the buses are headed to
different destinations. Unless someone has strictly followed each method to its completion and compared
the results: there is no definitive proof that the result is identical. Unless we hear as much
from someone we know to be omniscient. But then, we'd have to be omniscient to know they
were omniscient! So, another catch 22.

That's why it's safest not to presume two paths lead to the same result. If there are different methods : even
if superficially the language chosen to describe aspects is similar (as in the too oft compared Advaita and Dzogchen because of the shared non-dual approach) we should first presume that the unique methods lead to unique results, and follow
one chosen course devotedly to its end. Otherwise we may just get stuck in the middle, like someone trying to sit down in between two chairs: inevitably they'll just fall on their bum.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:18 am 
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At any rate, this Bentinho character rips off Dzogpa Chenpo, and in the end, of course, doesn't even teach Dzogpa Chenpo.

I'd go with Chatral Rinpoche's advice on this, of his 7 guidelines in one of his letters, number 4 is:

4. Do not sell out Dzogpa Chenpo under different pretext for your own personal benefit.

And number 6:
6. Do not cheat others in the name of Dzogpa Chenpo by giving initiations or teachings which you have never received from a legitimate high lama or Guru and [have] not done practice by yourself.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:32 am 
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asunthatneversets wrote:
At any rate, this Bentinho character rips off Dzogpa Chenpo, and in the end, of course, doesn't even teach Dzogpa Chenpo.

I'd go with Chatral Rinpoche's advice on this, of his 7 guidelines in one of his letters, number 4 is:

4. Do not sell out Dzogpa Chenpo under different pretext for your own personal benefit.

And number 6:
6. Do not cheat others in the name of Dzogpa Chenpo by giving initiations or teachings which you have never received from a legitimate high lama or Guru and [have] not done practice by yourself.


Thanks sun, can you provide us with the entire list please? :namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:38 am 
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Adamantine wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:
At any rate, this Bentinho character rips off Dzogpa Chenpo, and in the end, of course, doesn't even teach Dzogpa Chenpo.

I'd go with Chatral Rinpoche's advice on this, of his 7 guidelines in one of his letters, number 4 is:

4. Do not sell out Dzogpa Chenpo under different pretext for your own personal benefit.

And number 6:
6. Do not cheat others in the name of Dzogpa Chenpo by giving initiations or teachings which you have never received from a legitimate high lama or Guru and [have] not done practice by yourself.


Thanks sun, can you provide us with the entire list please? :namaste:

Declaration:

a) I wish to say a few important guidelines with regard to misuse of my humble name by different Buddhist monks, yogis, and lamas – those who are either visiting Taiwan or [have] settled down in southeast Asia in different countries despite of my repeated appeal to everyone. It is a matter of big surprise for me that several Buddhist Lamas whom I have never even met in my lifetime nor never given them any teachings, are also using my humble name continuously for their personal monetary benefit which is an extreme matter of shame and a big fraud. Wearing monk’s robes, cheating, and misleading lay people are a serious crime and breaks all Buddha’s principal Vows. [You are] sowing serious [negative] Karma for yourself and at the same time ruining Buddhism. I feel sorry for such gross negative activities by [these] Buddhist lamas, khenpos, yogis, and monks residing abroad. I strongly object to those who are using my name directly or indirectly by any means.

My constant guidelines and advice to all persons [whether he is a] reincarnated lama, yogi, khenpo or ordinary monk, with whom I happen to meet from day to day, are always same and are [stated] below:

1. If you are a serious Buddhist student and Dzogpa Chenpo (Dzogchen) practicitioners, one should spend your life in retreat with minimum comfort and giving up all luxuries of attachment.
 
2. Do not waste your time in touring all foreign countries including Taiwan – [this] is fruitless.

3. Do not beg for donations [using] different excuses such as construction of a big monastery, stupa, zangdokpalri, or bumtsog; big offerings; or setting up a new Buddhist center.

4. Do not sell out Dzogpa Chenpo under different pretext for your own personal benefit.

5. Always be humble and do not try to expose yourself in front of others even though you may have [some] knowledge [of] Buddhism.

6. Do not cheat others in the name of Dzogpa Chenpo by giving initiations or teachings which you have never received from a legitimate high lama or Guru and [have] not done practice by yourself.

7. Finally, I myself never have [even the] slightest desire to visit any foreign country nor have I any specific reason [to do so].

b. In the past, I have experienced several occasions, that despite my unwillingness and objection, reincarnate lamas, yogis, khenpos and monks who have come to see me are taking photographs with me by force under different pretexts. Due to electronic supremacy, people are coming with different types of electronic equipment so as to record my voice or photograph me, which are not easy to detect by people of my age.

c. Hence, I [hereby] notify all the Buddhist followers all over the world, do not, I repeat, do not believe the person who is possessing such photographs or are making false claims that he or she is my student in the past or present. Please do not believe [them] on just showing a photograph, video, [or others items with me]. Therefore, I, the undersigned with full consent, reject such types of false claims made by different Buddhist centers, monasteries, institutes, reincarnate lamas, khenpos, yogis, and ordinary monks henceforth.

In conclusion, once again, I sincerely appeal to all Buddhist followers all over the world and Buddhist Centers including the people who are taking interest in Buddhism religion; kindly take note of my above cited humble declaration and suggestions. After seeing this article in newspapers, I hope [that] everyone would clearly understand me and my personal opinion hereafter.

Dated April 19, 2007

Thanking you,

Declaration by Chatral Sangay Dorje


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:59 am 
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asunthatneversets wrote:
At any rate, this Bentinho character rips off Dzogpa Chenpo,
Does he?

He's teaching his own version of neo-Advaita, never heard of him discussing anything about Dzogchen but I might be wrong.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:46 am 
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xabir wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:
At any rate, this Bentinho character rips off Dzogpa Chenpo,
Does he?

He's teaching his own version of neo-Advaita, never heard of him discussing anything about Dzogchen but I might be wrong.

Not sure if he still does, but he used to teach his own interpretation of the three kāyas, it was quite blatant. He doesn't mention Dzogchen at all that's why it's essentially reinterpreting and repackaging it. He was accused of this by others early on in his career, perhaps he abandoned that aspect of his teaching due to that, I'm not sure. But I agree his teaching is his own version of neo-advaita, beyond that I'm unfamiliar with him, apart from hearing of his eccentric behavior as of late.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:35 am 
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Adamantine wrote:
tobes wrote:
But might the point be something like: both (i.e. the Buddhist and non-Buddhist dharma teacher) are bus drivers, but maybe the kind of bus is different?

This is not erase the particular - and ways of judging it/them - but to recognise that on this matter at least, there is some kind of interesting relation between the particular and the universal.

:anjali:



Maybe it's more accurate to assume it may be two bus drivers: but the buses are headed to
different destinations. Unless someone has strictly followed each method to its completion and compared
the results: there is no definitive proof that the result is identical. Unless we hear as much
from someone we know to be omniscient. But then, we'd have to be omniscient to know they
were omniscient! So, another catch 22.

That's why it's safest not to presume two paths lead to the same result. If there are different methods : even
if superficially the language chosen to describe aspects is similar (as in the too oft compared Advaita and Dzogchen because of the shared non-dual approach) we should first presume that the unique methods lead to unique results, and follow
one chosen course devotedly to its end. Otherwise we may just get stuck in the middle, like someone trying to sit down in between two chairs: inevitably they'll just fall on their bum.


Well, there's no proof is there, in either case? I mean, not even close.

I suppose I'm increasingly wary of Buddhist sectarianism, both within (i.e. Buddhist tradition A defining itself dialectically against Buddhist tradition B) and without (i.e. Buddhism per se defining itself dialectically against any other kind of ism).

This is not to say that Buddhists (or Dzogchenpa's) can't or shouldn't make necessary distinctions. But rather that there are a lot of deeply polemical/ideological/cultural reasons which have produced and continue to produce a rather crass sectarian logic.

I don't have any idea who this fellow is, or what he is trying to do; If his version of Buddhism/Dzogchen/Vedanta/New agey shonk doesn't appeal, then...well.....what's the big deal? Another unappealing teacher? So be it. What's to be gained by hanging him via the path of sectarian distinction?

:anjali:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:38 am 
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tobes wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
tobes wrote:
But might the point be something like: both (i.e. the Buddhist and non-Buddhist dharma teacher) are bus drivers, but maybe the kind of bus is different?

This is not erase the particular - and ways of judging it/them - but to recognise that on this matter at least, there is some kind of interesting relation between the particular and the universal.

:anjali:



Maybe it's more accurate to assume it may be two bus drivers: but the buses are headed to
different destinations. Unless someone has strictly followed each method to its completion and compared
the results: there is no definitive proof that the result is identical. Unless we hear as much
from someone we know to be omniscient. But then, we'd have to be omniscient to know they
were omniscient! So, another catch 22.

That's why it's safest not to presume two paths lead to the same result. If there are different methods : even
if superficially the language chosen to describe aspects is similar (as in the too oft compared Advaita and Dzogchen because of the shared non-dual approach) we should first presume that the unique methods lead to unique results, and follow
one chosen course devotedly to its end. Otherwise we may just get stuck in the middle, like someone trying to sit down in between two chairs: inevitably they'll just fall on their bum.


Well, there's no proof is there, in either case? I mean, not even close.

I suppose I'm increasingly wary of Buddhist sectarianism, both within (i.e. Buddhist tradition A defining itself dialectically against Buddhist tradition B) and without (i.e. Buddhism per se defining itself dialectically against any other kind of ism).

This is not to say that Buddhists (or Dzogchenpa's) can't or shouldn't make necessary distinctions. But rather that there are a lot of deeply polemical/ideological/cultural reasons which have produced and continue to produce a rather crass sectarian logic.

I don't have any idea who this fellow is, or what he is trying to do; If his version of Buddhism/Dzogchen/Vedanta/New agey shonk doesn't appeal, then...well.....what's the big deal? Another unappealing teacher? So be it. What's to be gained by hanging him via the path of sectarian distinction?

:anjali:


How in the world did you get "two different paths most likely don't lead to the same result = sectarianism"?
On the one hand, an extreme example would be the New Age idea that any spiritual path or religion will lead to the same result: be it devotional worship of a creator God, or sacrificing animals to local deities, any kind of newly arisen cult (Scientology, Heaven's Gate, et. al) Wicca, Free Masonry, etc. This is similar to the idea that paths developed via the Indian subcontinent must lead to the same result: Jainism, Vedism, various offshoots of modern Hinduism, Advaita Vedanta, Buddhism, etc.
If it is sectarian to believe they don't lead to the same result then Shakyamuni Buddha himself was one of the great Sectarians of all time!

How you are interpreting this as corresponding to sectarianism within the Buddhadharma itself is beyond me. That's an entirely different conversation which needs to be discussed within the proper context of Buddhist hermeneutics, lineage politics, and many other factors. It's not at all what I was talking about or alluding to.

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