Emptiness and omniscience

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby hop.pala » Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:19 am

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
(Sabba Sutta-The All)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:58 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
oushi wrote:Modesty as aspersion...
You obviously do not know what "casting aspersions" means.
It seems that for you, saving millions from suffering caused by this horrible disease is a waste of precious time....
One of my teachers is a allopathic and homeopathic doctor. Another one is a reiki master. They have all completed at least one traditional three year retreat. They are all qualified lama. They have devoted their entire lives to relieving suffering. If they knew the cure for AIDS, I am sure they would have told the world about it by now. Anyway, who told you that meditation teachers have to know how to cure physical disease too? How many people did the Buddha cure of their physical ailments? You may not be aware of the fact (not being omniscient and everything) that the Buddha suffered and died of a physical ailment. So please stop casting aspersions on my teachers.
bollocks, but you have to defend you views, no matter how stupid they are.
They are not my views. If you have an issue with what I am saying then you can take it up with the "stupid" Karma Kagyu lineage masters.

PS Did your teacher(s) give you the cure for AIDS yet? No? Maybe they are stupid and do not know the cure? Maybe they are cruel and wish to see people suffer? Maybe they are not fully enlightened and omniscient? Or maybe you just don't have a teacher(s) and are making all this up as you go along?

It is your claim that omniscience is knowledge about everything, not mine. So it is you who need to prove it. This is why I ask about AIDS cure, to show that such omniscience does not exist and never did. All-knowledge taught by the Buddha is something totally different. There never was, and never will be anyone knowing everything. Anyway, you are free to believe whatever you wish, I am done with your mumble.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:15 am

muni wrote:I hear the word groundlesness. :namaste:

If meaning is the ground, how will you call it?
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:35 am

oushi wrote:It is your claim that omniscience is knowledge about everything, not mine.
It is not my claim. It is the commonly arrived at defintion of the term. If you wish to define it otherwise then the onus of responsibility lies with you.
This is why I ask about AIDS cure, to show that such omniscience does not exist and never did.
You asked if my teachers know the cure to AIDS, I replied that my teachers are not fully-enlightened and thus they are not omniscient. This is not disprove that fully enlightened beings are omniscient.
All-knowledge taught by the Buddha is something totally different. There never was, and never will be anyone knowing everything.
Really?

The Omniscience of the Buddha
“Nàgasena, was the Buddha omniscient?”
“Yes, O king, but the insight of knowledge was not always with him. It depended on reflection.”
“Then, Nàgasena, the Buddha could not have been
omniscient if his knowledge was reached through reflection.”
“I will explain further. There are seven classes of mental
ability. Firstly, there are ordinary people (puthujjana)
who are full of desire, hatred and delusion; untrained in
their action, speech and thought; their thinking acts slowly
and with difficulty.
“Secondly, there are stream-winners who have
attained to right view and rightly grasped the Master’s
teaching. Their thinking powers are quick and function
easily as far as the first three fetters are concerned but
beyond that they function slowly and with difficulty.
“Thirdly, there are once-returners in whom desire
and hatred are reduced. Their thinking powers work
quickly and easily as far as the five lower fetters are
concerned but slowly and with difficulty beyond that.
“Fourthly, there are non-returners in whom desire
and hatred are eliminated. Their thinking powers work
quickly and easily as far as the ten fetters but slowly and
with difficulty beyond that.
“Fifthly, there are the arahants in whom the floods of
sensual desire, desire for rebirth, personality-belief and
ignorance have ceased, who have lived the holy life and
reached their final goal. Their thinking powers work
quickly as far as the range of a disciple is concerned but
slowly and with difficulty beyond that.64
“Sixthly, there are Solitary Buddhas who are dependent
on themselves alone, needing no teacher. Their thinking
powers work quickly as far as their own range is concerned
but as regards that which is exclusively the range of the
Perfectly Enlightened Ones their thinking works slowly
and with difficulty. Like a man who would readily cross a
small river that was on his own property but would hesitate
to cross the great ocean.
“Lastly, there are Perfectly Enlightened Buddhas who
have all knowledge, are endowed with the ten powers, the
four modes of fearlessness, and the eighteen characteristics
of a Buddha. Their thinking powers are quickly exercised
without sluggishness in any area of knowledge. As a sharp
bolt on a powerful crossbow would easily pass through a
thin cloth, just so their knowledge is unimpeded and easily
outclasses the other six. It is because their minds are so clear
and agile that the Buddhas can display the Twin Miracle.65
From that we may only guess how clear and active their
powers are. For all these wonders there is no reason other
than reflection that can be asserted.”
“Nevertheless, Nàgasena, reflection is carried out for
the purpose of seeking out what was not already clear
before the reflection began.”
“A rich man would not be called poor just because
there was no food prepared when a traveller arrived at his
house unexpectedly; nor would a tree be called barren
when it was fully laden just because no fruit had yet fallen
on the ground. So too the Buddha is indeed omniscient
although his knowledge is gained through reflection.”

64. There is no lack in their wisdom, but as regards knowledge of former lives or
knowledge of the spiritual faculties of beings there is.
65. A feat of supernormal power where fountains of fire and water issue simultaneously
from each pore of his body.
The Debate of King Milinda

Ten Powers of a Tathagata
9. "Sariputta, the Tathagata has these ten Tathagata's powers, possessing which he claims the herd-leader's place, roars his lion's roar in the assemblies, and sets rolling the Wheel of Brahma.[5] What are the ten?

10. (1) "Here, the Tathagata understands as it actually is the possible as possible and the impossible as impossible.[6] And that [70] is a Tathagata's power that the Tathagata has, by virtue of which he claims the herd-leader's place, roars his lion's roar in the assemblies, and sets rolling the Wheel of Brahma.

11. (2) "Again, the Tathagata understands as it actually is the results of actions undertaken, past, future and present, with possibilities and with causes. That too is a Tathagata's power...[7]

12. (3) "Again, the Tathagata understands as it actually is the ways leading to all destinations. That too is a Tathagata's power...[8]

13. (4) "Again, the Tathagata understands as it actually is the world with its many and different elements. That too is a Tathagata's power...[9]

14. (5) "Again, the Tathagata understands as it actually is how beings have different inclinations. That too is a Tathagata's power...[10]

15. (6) "Again, the Tathagata understands as it actually is the disposition of the faculties of other beings, other persons. That too is a Tathagata's power...[11]

16. (7) "Again, the Tathagata understands as it actually is the defilement, the cleansing and the emergence in regard to the jhanas, liberations, concentrations and attainments. That too is a Tathagata's power...[12]

17. (8) "Again, the Tathagata recollects his manifold past lives, that is, one birth, two births, three births, four births, five births, ten births, twenty births, thirty births, forty births, fifty births, a hundred births, a thousand births, a hundred thousand births, many aeons of world-contraction, many aeons of world-expansion, many aeons of world-contraction and expansion: 'There I was so named, of such a clan, with such an appearance, such was my nutriment, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my life-term; and passing away from there, I reappeared elsewhere; and there too I was so named, of such a clan, with such an appearance, such was my nutriment, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my life-term; and passing away from there, I reappeared here.' Thus with their aspects and particulars he recollects his manifold past lives. That too is a Tathagata's power...

18. (9) "Again, with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, the Tathagata sees beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and he understands how beings pass on according to their actions thus: 'These worthy beings who were ill-conducted in body, speech and mind, revilers of noble ones, wrong in their views, giving effect to wrong view in their actions, on the dissolution of the body, [71] after death, have reappeared in a state of deprivation, in a bad destination, in perdition, even in hell; but these worthy beings who were well-conducted in body, speech and mind, not revilers of noble ones, right in their views, giving effect to right view in their actions, on the dissolution of the body, after death, have reappeared in a good destination, even in the heavenly world.' Thus with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, he sees beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and he understands how beings pass on according to their actions. That too is a Tathagata's power...

19. (10) "Again, by realizing it for himself with direct knowledge, the Tathagata here and now enters upon and abides in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints. That too is a Tathagata's power that a Tathagata has, by virtue of which he claims the herd-leader's place, roars his lion's roar in the assemblies, and sets rolling the Wheel of Brahma.

20. "The Tathagata has these ten Tathagata's powers, possessing which he claims the herd-leader's place, roars his lion's roar in the assemblies, and sets rolling the Wheel of Brahma.

21. "Sariputta, when I know and see thus, should anyone say of me: 'The recluse Gotama does not have any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. The recluse Gotama teaches a Dhamma (merely) hammered out by reasoning, following his own line of inquiry as it occurs to him' — unless he abandons that assertion and that state of mind and relinquishes that view, then as (surely as if he had been) carried off and put there he will wind up in hell.[13] Just as a bhikkhu possessed of virtue, concentration and wisdom would here and now enjoy final knowledge, so it will happen in this case, I say, that unless he abandons that assertion and that state of mind and relinquishes that view, then as (surely as if he had been) carried off and put there he will wind up in hell.

5.
Comy.: The Wheel of Brahma (brahmacakka) is the supreme, best, most excellent wheel, the Wheel of the Dhamma (dhammacakka). This has two aspects: the knowledge of penetration (pativedhañana) and the knowledge of teaching (desanañana). The knowledge of penetration, by which the Buddha penetrates the truth of the Dhamma, is produced from wisdom and leads to the attainment of the noble fruit for himself; the knowledge of teaching, by which the Buddha is qualified to expound the Dhamma perfectly to others, is produced from compassion and leads others to the attainment of the noble fruit.
6.
Comy. glosses thana as cause or ground (karana) and explains: "Such and such dhammas are causes (hetu), conditions (paccaya), for the arising of such and such dhammas: that is thana. Such and such dhammas are not causes, not conditions, for the arising of such and such dhammas: that is atthana. Knowing that, he understands thana as thana and atthana as atthana (i.e., causal occasion as causal occasion, and non-causal occasion as non-causal occasion)." Comy. also refers to the different explanation in the Vibhanga, apparently regarding both explanations as acceptable.
Vbh. Section 809 explains this knowledge with reference to MN 115 as the Buddha's knowledge of what is possible and what is impossible, e.g., it is impossible that a person possessed of right view should regard any formations as permanent or as pleasurable, or anything whatever as self, while it is possible that a worldling will regard things in such an erroneous way. It is impossible for a person possessed of right view to commit the five heinous crimes (matricide, patricide, the murder of an arahant, the wounding of a Buddha, causing a schism in the Sangha), while it is possible for a worldling to commit such crimes, etc. etc.
7.
Vbh. Section 810: "Herein, the Tathagata comprehends that there are some evil actions performed which do not mature because they are prevented from maturing by a fortunate rebirth, a fortunate body, a fortunate time, a fortunate effort, while there are some evil actions performed which mature because of an unfortunate rebirth, etc. There are some good actions which do not mature because of an unfortunate rebirth, etc., while there are some good actions which mature because of a fortunate rebirth, etc." (condensed).
8.
Vbh. Section 811: "Herein, the Tathagata comprehends thus: 'This is the path, this is the practice leading to hell, to the animal realm, to the plane of ghosts, to the human realm, to the realm of the gods, to deliverance.' " This knowledge will be elaborated upon below in Sections 35-42.
9.
Vbh. Section 812: "The Tathagata comprehends the different aggregates, the different sense bases, the different elements; he comprehends the different worlds that have many elements, different elements."
10.
Vbh. Section 813: "The Tathagata understands that beings are of inferior inclinations and superior inclinations, and that they gravitate towards those who share their own inclinations" (condensed).
11.
Vbh. Sections 814-27 gives a detailed analysis. Comy. states the meaning more concisely as the Tathagata's knowledge of the superiority and inferiority of beings' faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom.
12.
Vbh. Section 828: "The defilement (sankilesa) is a state partaking of deterioration; cleansing (vodana) is a state partaking of distinction; emergence (vutthana) is both cleansing and the rising out of an attainment. The eight liberations (vimokkha) are enumerated, e.g., at DN 15/ii,70-71, and comprise three liberations pertaining to the realm of material form, the four immaterial attainments, and the cessation of perception and feeling. The nine attainments (samapatti) are the four jhanas, the four immaterial attainments, and cessation.
13.
The idiom yathabhatam nikkhitto evam niraye is knotty; the rendering here follows the gloss of Comy.: "He will be put in hell as if carried off and put there by the wardens of hell." Although such a fate may sound excessively severe merely for verbal denigration, it should be remembered that he is maligning a Fully Enlightened Buddha with a mind of hatred, and his intention in so doing is to discourage others from entering upon the path that could lead them to complete liberation from suffering.
14.
The four kinds of intrepidity (vesarajja: also rendered "grounds of self-confidence") may be divided into two pairs. The first pair relates mainly to the internal qualities of the Buddha, his achievement of personal perfection, while the second pair has an outward orientation, being concerned primarily with his qualifications as a teacher. The first intrepidity confirms his attainment of supreme enlightenment and the removal of all obscuration regarding the range of what may be known; it points to the Buddha's acquisition of omniscience (sabbaññutañana). The second underlines his complete purity through the destruction of all defilements; it points to his achievement of the fruit of arahantship. The third means that the Buddha's understanding of obstructions to the goal is unimpeachable, while the fourth confirms the efficacy of the Dhamma in accomplishing its intended purpose, namely, leading the practitioner to complete release from suffering.
15.
In later Buddhist tradition the asuras, titans or "anti-gods," are added as a separate realm to make the "six destinations" familiar from the Tibetan Wheel of Life.
16.
Comy.: Even though the description is the same as that of the bliss of the heavenly world, the meaning is different. For the bliss of the heavenly world is not really extremely pleasant because the fevers of lust, etc. are still present there. But the bliss of Nibbana is extremely pleasant in every way through the subsiding of all fevers.
Maha-Sihanada Sutta

I could provide you with still more mumblings, but I am not going to engage in any further conversation with you on the matter. I have posted various excerpts so that others reading this thread may understand that I am not making things up as I go along. Like the prayer to Gendeun Rinpoche says: "The stream of compassion descends to fill the sentient beings which are suitable vessels to receive it."

I sincerely wish that your current view brings an end to your suffering and leads you to liberation in this lifetime.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby hop.pala » Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:46 am

All-knowing is all- knowing dont make joke from the word.Not in one momenet all-knowing,but on that pay attention will be knowed.

" We must remember that the Buddha, the Enlightened One, is not only, like the scientist, a lokavidu, "a knower of the world" but also, above all, a vijjacaranasampanno, "one complete in both knowledge and conduct."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_42.html
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:05 pm

hop.pala wrote:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_42.html

Thank you hop.pala for bringing this article into discussion. It precisely shows the misconception that Sherab is dedicated to.

"Again, the knowledge to be acquired by the practice of Dhamma differs significantly from that sought by science in several major respects. Most importantly, the knowledge sought is not simply the acquisition of objective information about the constitution and operations of the physical world, but a deep personal insight into the real nature of one's personal existence."

So Sharab, no Buddha will tell you how many teeth you are missing, unless he looks into your mouth and counts. Anyway, I wish you the best in becoming omniscient of all information, because if you succeed, you will bring more benefit to humanity then all the past and future Buddhas combined.

"Vaccha, those who say, the recluse Gotama is all knowing and all seeing and acknowledges remainder-less knowledge and vision, while walking, standing, lying or awake, constantly and continually. They, do not say my words, they blame me falsely.
-the Blessed One "
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby hop.pala » Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:36 pm

Ok onushi np.But please see what you quoted:
" Most importantly, the knowledge sought is not simply the acquisition of objective information about the constitution and operations of the physical world, but a deep personal insight into the real nature of one's personal existence."

Buddha know not only the teeth in your mouth,he know immediately why missing the teeth,and all thing about the teeth.
again:

"deep personal insight"
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:41 pm

hop.pala wrote:Ok onushi np.But please see what you quoted:
" Most importantly, the knowledge sought is not simply the acquisition of objective information about the constitution and operations of the physical world, but a deep personal insight into the real nature of one's personal existence."

Buddha know not only the teeth in your mouth,he know immediately why missing the teeth,and all thing about the teeth.
again:

"deep personal insight"

No no no my friend... "deep personal insight" but "into the nature of one's personal existence", not the content and history of appearances. It's like a great palace made of cheese. He does not know everything about all the rooms in it, but upon reflection, he knows "it's cheese!". Now we replace palace with all phenomena and cheese with emptiness, and we end up with: all phenomena are empty. Because all are empty, emptiness is the only thing to know, to have all-knowledge about everything. No matter what information, what appearance, it's always empty. Emptiness of all phenomena is sufficient for all-knowledge.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:54 pm

I have to disagree with you Oushi. If mind abides nowhere; it is present everywhere and penetrating everything. What's there not to know?
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:03 pm

LastLegend wrote:I have to disagree with you Oushi. If mind abides nowhere; it is present everywhere and penetrating everything. What's there not to know?

What is mind? What does it mean that it is present everywhere? How do you acknowledge its presence everywhere? What is that which penetrates everything, and how?
Please, give answers you are certain of. It will help a lot.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:14 pm

oushi wrote:
LastLegend wrote:I have to disagree with you Oushi. If mind abides nowhere; it is present everywhere and penetrating everything. What's there not to know?

What is mind? What does it mean that it is present everywhere? How do you acknowledge its presence everywhere? What is that which penetrates everything, and how?
Please, give answers you are certain of. It will help a lot.

Now the burden of proof is on me :). But lucky you friend, I will don't quote scriptures :) .
Mind is Oushy speaking right now. It has no dimension shape or size.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby hop.pala » Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:21 pm

not the content and history of appearances.

Ok i see can not do with the word emptiness.Buddha see her previous lives too...You remember" emptiness is form,and form is emptiness"
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby invisiblediamond » Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:44 pm

montana wrote:Is there a connection between emptiness and omniscience?
It seems to me that there should be because when you have this wisdom false appearances no longer obscure the mind.

Also, does bliss generated from compassion offer more than just energy to emptiness wisdom or is there something about compassion/bliss that primes you for seeing emptiness?


Yes.

Compassion and Wisdom are only bliss when nondual. This is the Buddha's special method.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:01 pm

LastLegend wrote:Mind is Oushy speaking right now.

And something different right now... What is that thing which takes all those forms?
It has no dimension shape or size.

What does it have then?
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:08 pm

I don't know man. I've worked 16 hours straight. My brain has shut down virtually. :thanks:
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:11 pm

LastLegend wrote:I don't know man.

"This absence of knowing is itself the inconceivable, and that which is inconceivable is the true awareness of the Buddha" - Mahaprajnaparamita.

This is as far as words can go. Hope it was of some use for you.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:18 pm

Thanks I'll find out when I wake up. :rolling:
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby dimeo » Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:41 pm

I know nothing about omniscience, but it's possible that the more we rest in pure awareness the less our minds are clouded and consumed by our obsessions, anxieties, constant self talk, and other silly nonsense. This leaves the consciousness open to seeing more, so rather profound intuition and insight can arise more easily. It's also much easier to see the humor in daily life.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oldbob » Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:55 pm

dimeo wrote:I know nothing about omniscience, but it's possible that the more we rest in pure awareness the less our minds are clouded and consumed by our obsessions, anxieties, constant self talk, and other silly nonsense. This leaves the consciousness open to seeing more, so rather profound intuition and insight can arise more easily. It's also much easier to see the humor in daily life.


"The more we rest in pure awareness: emptiness and omniscience."
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