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My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self) - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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reflection
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby reflection » Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:45 pm

DarwidHalim,

Thanks for your reply. What you are stating is not what agrees with my intuition and interpretation of the suttas. But explaining it will be a repetition of moves without a lot of use, so I'll leave it at a respectful disagreement.

With metta,
Reflection
Last edited by reflection on Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Eccedustin
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby Eccedustin » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:43 pm

The universe is awake, conscious and aware of itself! The universe is awake, conscious and aware of itself because we are awake, conscious and aware of ourselves. We are the not just in the universe, we are the universe.

santa100
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby santa100 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:48 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:
"If you kill properly the ignorance of thinking there is such thing called self, all those craving, attachment, and grasping will dead on the spot."

That's certainly valid in principle but how exactly do we implement it? If right view alone is sufficient to destroy the three poisons at its root, then the Buddha wouldn't have called it the Eightfold Noble Path. He would just call it the Single Noble Path with just that single element of right view. But that wasn't the case. One would need 7 more to effectively destroy the three poisons: right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That's why there're stages of stream entry, once return, non return, and arahant. It's simply impossible for one with just the element of right view to make the quantum leap from an uninstructed worldling to an enlightened being..

starter
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby starter » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:00 pm

Hi after listening to a sutta on disputes caused by perception, I'd like to use a similar phrase as in the sutta for anatta:

It's not right to say "There is a self", or "There is no self";

It's right to say "There's NO no-self" and "There's NO annihilation of self".

Metta to all,

Starter

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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:45 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:11 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Eccedustin
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby Eccedustin » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:12 pm

The universe is awake, conscious and aware of itself! The universe is awake, conscious and aware of itself because we are awake, conscious and aware of ourselves. We are the not just in the universe, we are the universe.

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DarwidHalim
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby DarwidHalim » Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:01 am

I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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cooran
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby cooran » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:30 am

Hello DarwidHalim, all,

This might be of interest regarding Right View:

''Perplexity sometimes arises over an apparent inconsistency in the arrangement of the path factors and the threefold training. Wisdom -- which includes right view and right intention -- is the last stage in the threefold training, yet its factors are placed at the beginning of the path rather than at its end, as might be expected according to the canon of strict consistency. The sequence of the path factors, however, is not the result of a careless slip, but is determined by an important logistical consideration, namely, that right view and right intention of a preliminary type are called for at the outset as the spur for entering the threefold training. Right view provides the perspective for practice, right intention the sense of direction. But the two do not expire in this preparatory role. For when the mind has been refined by the training in moral discipline and concentration, it arrives at a superior right view and right intention, which now form the proper training in the higher wisdom.

Right view is the forerunner of the entire path, the guide for all the other factors. It enables us to understand our starting point, our destination, and the successive landmarks to pass as practice advances. To attempt to engage in the practice without a foundation of right view is to risk getting lost in the futility of undirected movement. Doing so might be compared to wanting to drive someplace without consulting a roadmap or listening to the suggestions of an experienced driver. One might get into the car and start to drive, but rather than approaching closer to one's destination, one is more likely to move farther away from it. To arrive at the desired place one has to have some idea of its general direction and of the roads leading to it. Analogous considerations apply to the practice of the path, which takes place in a framework of understanding established by right view.''
[…………………………………]
The Noble Eightfold Path by Bhikkhu Bodhi
RIGHT VIEW (SAMMA DITTHI)
http://www.vipassana.com/resources/8fp2.php

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Cittasanto
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:55 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

vinasp
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby vinasp » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:39 am

Hi everyone,

I agree with DarwidHalim that change, in itself, is not the cause of suffering.

Consider these two passages from SN 22.1

"There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He is seized with the idea that 'I am form' or 'Form is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his form changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration."

"And how is one afflicted in body but unafflicted in mind? There is the case where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — does not assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He is not seized with the idea that 'I am form' or 'Form is mine.' As he is not seized with these ideas, his form changes & alters, but he does not fall into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair over its change & alteration."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

See also SN 22.7 for a very similar description.

Regards, Vincent.

vinasp
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby vinasp » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:55 pm

Hi everyone,

I also agree with DarwidHalim that craving is not the cause of suffering.

You could say that it is A CAUSE, but not THE CAUSE.

Also, craving is not the origin of suffering, this is a common mistranslation.

Take, for example, the Second Noble Truth:

idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhasamudayaṃ ariyasaccaṃ —

"Monks, what is the Noble Truth concerning the origin of suffering?"

[ The Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, The Great Discourse on the Turning of the
Wheel of Dhamma, Buddhadhamma Foundation, 1996 - page 124]

The key term here is samudayam - PED:

Samudaya [saŋ+udaya] 1. rise, origin D i.17; ii.33, 308; iii.227; A i.263 (kamma˚); Vin i.10; Sn p. 135; It 16 (samuddaya metri causa) etc. dukkha˚; the origin of ill, the second ariya -- sacca, e. g. D iii.136; A i.177 Vism 495 (where samudaya is expld in its parts as sam u+aya); VbhA 124. -- 2. bursting forth, effulgence (pabhā˚) J i.83. -- 3. produce, revenue D i.227.[End Quote]

Clearly, the correct meaning here is "rise" or "arising", and not the cause or origin.

In many places in the Salayatana samy the six-spheres are said to be suffering,
these are three links prior to craving in the DO formula.

Craving originates from ignorance or a misconception, it has a cognitive
origin.

This is why the four principle asava's are only eliminated by seeing.

Seeing what?

Regards, Vincent.

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Eccedustin
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby Eccedustin » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:39 am

The universe is awake, conscious and aware of itself! The universe is awake, conscious and aware of itself because we are awake, conscious and aware of ourselves. We are the not just in the universe, we are the universe.

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Alex123
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:00 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Eccedustin
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby Eccedustin » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:08 am

The universe is awake, conscious and aware of itself! The universe is awake, conscious and aware of itself because we are awake, conscious and aware of ourselves. We are the not just in the universe, we are the universe.

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Alex123
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:13 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Eccedustin
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby Eccedustin » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:37 am

The universe is awake, conscious and aware of itself! The universe is awake, conscious and aware of itself because we are awake, conscious and aware of ourselves. We are the not just in the universe, we are the universe.

User avatar
Alex123
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:45 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Eccedustin
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby Eccedustin » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:55 am

The universe is awake, conscious and aware of itself! The universe is awake, conscious and aware of itself because we are awake, conscious and aware of ourselves. We are the not just in the universe, we are the universe.

User avatar
Alex123
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:10 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."


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