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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:36 am 
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invocation implies bringing something into being (invoking it) with words. someone might invoke the power of a god in order to accomplish something.

supplication is what you do when you go to someone who is much more powerful than you (say a king or queen) and ask for help.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:52 am 
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Jikan wrote:
invocation implies bringing something into being (invoking it) with words. someone might invoke the power of a god in order to accomplish something.

supplication is what you do when you go to someone who is much more powerful than you (say a king or queen) and ask for help.



Thank you, Jikan!
The meanings of these 2 words are similar in Greek: επίκληση (invocation) and ικεσία (supplication).
In this case, I prefer "invocation" (επίκληση), because it is more direct.
"Supplication" presupposes a strong dualistic view.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:26 am 
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Dronma wrote:
Jikan wrote:
invocation implies bringing something into being (invoking it) with words. someone might invoke the power of a god in order to accomplish something.

supplication is what you do when you go to someone who is much more powerful than you (say a king or queen) and ask for help.



Thank you, Jikan!
The meanings of these 2 words are similar in Greek: επίκληση (invocation) and ικεσία (supplication).
In this case, I prefer "invocation" (επίκληση), because it is more direct.
"Supplication" presupposes a strong dualistic view.


ChNN uses the term "invocation" for two distinctly different kinds of texts i.e. smon lam i.e. aspirations (pranidhāna) and gsol 'debs i.e. petitions (adhyeṣaṇā).

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:50 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
Dronma wrote:
Jikan wrote:
invocation implies bringing something into being (invoking it) with words. someone might invoke the power of a god in order to accomplish something.

supplication is what you do when you go to someone who is much more powerful than you (say a king or queen) and ask for help.



Thank you, Jikan!
The meanings of these 2 words are similar in Greek: επίκληση (invocation) and ικεσία (supplication).
In this case, I prefer "invocation" (επίκληση), because it is more direct.
"Supplication" presupposes a strong dualistic view.


ChNN uses the term "invocation" for two distinctly different kinds of texts i.e. smon lam i.e. aspirations (pranidhāna) and gsol 'debs i.e. petitions (adhyeṣaṇā).


So, it seems that the meaning of the one word: aspirations (smon lam - pranidhāna) is closer to invocation (επίκληση), and the other one: petitions (gsol 'debs - adhyeṣaṇā) is closer to supplication (ικεσία).
Since Rinpoche is using "invocation" for both, I don't see why we have to change anything.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:45 am 
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Dronma wrote:
Jikan wrote:
invocation implies bringing something into being (invoking it) with words. someone might invoke the power of a god in order to accomplish something.

supplication is what you do when you go to someone who is much more powerful than you (say a king or queen) and ask for help.



Thank you, Jikan!
The meanings of these 2 words are similar in Greek: επίκληση (invocation) and ικεσία (supplication).
In this case, I prefer "invocation" (επίκληση), because it is more direct.
"Supplication" presupposes a strong dualistic view.


In Hebrew there are two words, tefilla (תפילה) which is translated as "prayer",from the root "פלל", and tachanun (תחנון), which is best translated as "supplication", from the root "חנן". Neither of these words suggests invocation. The term for prayer, tefillah, literally means "to judge oneself". Rather than being conceived of as a way of twisting the arm of the deity (difficult to do when the deity in question is supposed to be incorporeal, timelessly eternal and immutable, inter alia), it is best understood as a means of self-education or self-transformation. Tachanun -- supplication -- comes from the word for kindness or grace and asks for this. The notion is dualistic: there is the source of kindness and grace, one the one hand; and on the other hand, there is the supplicant.

In the context of Dharma, I also agree with Dronma that "invocation" is better than "supplication", but wonder whether the Jewish scholars' "take" on prayer as self-judgment and self-transformation doesn't capture an important part of the intention of Dharma-related practices as well, something which neither "Invocation" nor "Supplication" capture.

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atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
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Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:23 am 
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I don't think the word used matters at all. LOL :)

As long as ChNNR uses a word in a consistent way he can use any word he likes and it would not make any difference.

Terminology is only useful if it is consistent and its meaning is shared accurately.

Maybe he could invent a few - 'incorcism' to link minds with a deity, or 'exvocation' to tell a harmful spirit to clear off.

Of course, we have the added dimension in Dzogchen of a shared state and the vocabulary around that.

I don't think ChNNR needs to comply with our linguistic expectations or teach in line with other Dzogchen teachers.

Occasionally etymology does have a use, such as when a council (apocryphally?) decided to replace the words 'manual, 'manhole'' and 'manager' as they may offend women, until it was pointed out that the words related to the Latin 'manus' (hand) and not to 'man'. We also accept many words used very differently according to the context, such as with the management jargon a person may be expected to spray into a job interview in order to impress people.

Enough of this circumlocutory peregrination !

This being a FAQ thread I think we should simply be listing the vocabulary and meaning as used by ChNNR rather than debating the alternatives. ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:26 am 
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Supplication and invocation mean to 'bring into experience'. Whichever works for you.

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"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:32 am 
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Anyhoo folks, the next Direct Tranmission is due next month....


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:42 am 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
This being a FAQ thread I think we should simply be listing the vocabulary and meaning as used by ChNNR rather than debating the alternatives. ;)


You're right about this. Perhaps one of the mods should clean the thread and use the lexically excavated invocation material for a new thread, in order to maintain the character of this thread as a FAQ. :rules: -- even though I'm a prime offender in this case! :emb:

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Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:25 am 
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Sally Gross wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
This being a FAQ thread I think we should simply be listing the vocabulary and meaning as used by ChNNR rather than debating the alternatives. ;)


You're right about this. Perhaps one of the mods should clean the thread and use the lexically excavated invocation material for a new thread, in order to maintain the character of this thread as a FAQ. :rules: -- even though I'm a prime offender in this case! :emb:


No, I started the thread and meandered quite early on. LOL :)

FAQ is for answering questions, and it is good to chew over the possibilities and nuances sometimes. :)

It's actually only very recently that I grasped the basic vocabulary such as 'rigpa' and 'marigpa' so I'm grateful for any signposts on terminology. ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:44 pm 
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GARUDA AS PRACTISED IN THE DZOGCHEN COMMUNITY - AN OVERVIEW:

http://bluegaruda.com/2012/08/07/444/

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:32 pm 
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Interesting conversation about "Supplication" and "Invocation."

Namdrol, or anyone else, can you tell me how CNNR translates "Chendren" (spyan.'dren)? "Invitation?"

Perhaps it's not a word used in DC?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:19 pm 
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Hi, I received teachings from ChNN, but I know very little about DC, so thank for this post.
During the retreat I spoke with some people, and they told me they never take Refuge. Now, I know that Dzogchen is another Yana according to ChNN, but there are lots of tantric practices, and to practice them, as I was told countless times by my other teachers (my background is Karma Kagyu) one need to take Refuge and preferably do Ngondro first...So, no Refuge, no Ngondro, and very advanced tantric practices such as Chod, yidams and so on...Can someone explain that approach to me, please?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:29 pm 
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SuryaMitra wrote:
Hi, I received teachings from ChNN, but I know very little about DC, so thank for this post.
During the retreat I spoke with some people, and they told me they never take Refuge.

Then they either don't do any formal practice or haven't understood Rinpoche's teachings (or both).

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Now, I know that Dzogchen is another Yana according to ChNN, but there are lots of tantric practices, and to practice them, as I was told countless times by my other teachers (my background is Karma Kagyu) one need to take Refuge and preferably do Ngondro first...So, no Refuge, no Ngondro, and very advanced tantric practices such as Chod, yidams and so on...Can someone explain that approach to me, please?

Just the regular Ngondro (4×100 000) isn't done in general. You can do it if you want to though.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:33 pm 
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SuryaMitra wrote:
Hi, I received teachings from ChNN, but I know very little about DC, so thank for this post.
During the retreat I spoke with some people, and they told me they never take Refuge. Now, I know that Dzogchen is another Yana according to ChNN, but there are lots of tantric practices, and to practice them, as I was told countless times by my other teachers (my background is Karma Kagyu) one need to take Refuge and preferably do Ngondro first...So, no Refuge, no Ngondro, and very advanced tantric practices such as Chod, yidams and so on...Can someone explain that approach to me, please?


I think they meant that they never took "formal refuge", but they do take refuge in every practice. Preliminary practices can be understood in different ways, such as Khorde Rushen for example.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:20 pm 
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SuryaMitra wrote:
Hi, I received teachings from ChNN, but I know very little about DC, so thank for this post.
During the retreat I spoke with some people, and they told me they never take Refuge. Now, I know that Dzogchen is another Yana according to ChNN, but there are lots of tantric practices, and to practice them, as I was told countless times by my other teachers (my background is Karma Kagyu) one need to take Refuge and preferably do Ngondro first...So, no Refuge, no Ngondro, and very advanced tantric practices such as Chod, yidams and so on...Can someone explain that approach to me, please?


Refuge and bodhicitta is there in all DC practices. Like Pero said, you can do the ngondro of 4x100.000 if you want. The main idea of his approach is that you practice Dzogchen, or try to practice it immediately and then add in any of the secondary practices Rinpoche transmit that inspire you. I recommend that you follow the webcasts, next one is on his own terma of the dakini Mandarava, it is the best way to understand his approach. There is also a step by step approach called the santi maha sangha.

/magnus

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:12 pm 
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SuryaMitra wrote:
Hi, I received teachings from ChNN, but I know very little about DC, so thank for this post.
During the retreat I spoke with some people, and they told me they never take Refuge. Now, I know that Dzogchen is another Yana according to ChNN, but there are lots of tantric practices, and to practice them, as I was told countless times by my other teachers (my background is Karma Kagyu) one need to take Refuge and preferably do Ngondro first...So, no Refuge, no Ngondro, and very advanced tantric practices such as Chod, yidams and so on...Can someone explain that approach to me, please?

You use your mind to go beyond mind and to your nature. CHNNR gives introduction to the nature of mind. There are three times a year for example when you can tune in through the webcast when he is specifically transmitting this way, however anytime you are singing Song of Vajra there is the potential to get into your nature, but first you would have to have the transmission for that. If you are in that nature even as long as it takes for an ant to crawl from the end of your nose to the top of your forehead then you have had a glimpse of your own true nature, an actual experience, you continue practicing this way with Guru Yoga of white AH and tigle, the tun book, there are many practices you learn and apply, there are Ganachakras same as in Vajrayana tradition. Again and again using the visuals and practices and especially tuning into the webcasts, and the optimum is becoming a member (seeing and hearing Rinpoche) and being able to go to an archive of replays, you have a kind of direct connection to Dzogchen teachings from a master who can explain them very well, and more importantly you can get into your real nature rather than just have some intellectual knowledge from a book. DC teachings from CHNNR aren't dry intellectual teachings, this has to do with getting into your nature with your own experience.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:37 pm 
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SuryaMitra wrote:
Hi, I received teachings from ChNN, but I know very little about DC, so thank for this post.
During the retreat I spoke with some people, and they told me they never take Refuge.


That means they do not understand ChNN's teachings.

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at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:57 pm 
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By saying they never took Refuge , I meant they did n`t took the Refuge ceremony.
Thank you very much guys :namaste:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:01 pm 
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.


Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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