Climate Change: We're Doomed

Alleviating worldly suffering along the way.

Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby Kim O'Hara » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:41 pm

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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby Nemo » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:27 pm

I don't debate bullshit corporate sponsored propaganda.
James Powell is quite right wing and was the environmental advisor for Reagan and Bush. He made this chart.
http://www.jamespowell.org/PieChart/piechart.html
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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby Kim O'Hara » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:59 pm

Thanks, Nemo.
I've been recommending The Merchants of Doubt, which details the connection between tobacco and climate denialism, for some years.
I have just come across a companion book, James Powell’s The Inquisition of Climate Science, reviewed in Think Progress at http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2011/01/19/207368/the-inquisition-of-climate-science/ and on Skeptical Science at http://www.skepticalscience.com/Book-review-Inquisition-of-Climate-Science.html.
The first review is better written but the second has more links to further reading - take your pick, folks.

:reading:
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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby Alex123 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:43 am

Hello Nemo,

re: pie chart. The crucial question is "what do those 13,950 climate articles and 24 (against) deal with". Do they describe affects of global warming, or do they prove humans cause it? Big difference. Also quantity is not the same as quality. 24 articles can be true while 24,000 are false.

Regardless of "whose fault", the environment is extremely important to conserve for us, and for the future generations.
If life is imperfect (dukkha), then it is ignorant to try to change it to perfection (sukha). Accept what is!
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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby Nemo » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:19 am

Peer reviewed. Stop being a Fox News watching American sock puppet of the oil and gas industry. After the army I have no patience for indoctrinated propaganda bullshit.
Last edited by Nemo on Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby Kim O'Hara » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:24 am

Alex123 wrote:Hello Nemo,

re: pie chart. The crucial question is "what do those 13,950 climate articles and 24 (against) deal with". Do they describe affects of global warming, or do they prove humans cause it? Big difference. Also quantity is not the same as quality. 24 articles can be true while 24,000 are false.

Hi, Alex,
You could have clicked on the link in Nemo's post and read the article to find ...
By my definition, 24 of the 13,950 articles, 0.17% or 1 in 581, clearly reject global warming or endorse a cause other than CO2 emissions for observed warming. The list of articles that reject global warming is here. The 24 articles have been cited a total of 113 times over the nearly 21-year period, for an average of close to 5 citations each. That compares to an average of about 19 citations for articles answering to "global warming," for example. Four of the rejecting articles have never been cited; four have citations in the double-digits. The most-cited has 17. For an analysis of the 113 citations, see here. Only 50 of the citing articles are truly independent and peer-reviewed.

Of one thing we can be certain: had any of the 24 articles presented the magic bullet that falsifies human-caused global warming, that article would be on its way to becoming one of the most-cited in the history of science. If there were such an article, one would not have to hunt for it.

... then clicked on the links in that quote (not copied here - you've got to do a little work yourself) to see the full list of articles and see what they are about.

Alex123 wrote:Regardless of "whose fault", the environment is extremely important to conserve for us, and for the future generations.

:applause:

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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby padma norbu » Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:23 am

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby padma norbu » Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:27 am

Alex123 wrote:
Nemo wrote:You really make Americans look like idiots. No on else on earth believes this corporate propaganda nonsense. How did America turn into a banana republic? Pravda had better lies than this drivel.


Please refute what I've said. Simply using ad hominem without backing up with arguments is definitely not going to look convincing to those who think and analyze.


That is actually incorrect. People who think and analyze (complex systems analysts, for example) are pretty much at their limit, as you can see by the title in the link above (“Is Earth F**ked? Dynamical Futility of Global Environmental Management and Possibilities for Sustainability via Direct Action Activism”.. the answer to the question, by the way, is "more or less.") That link once again: http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/10/science-says-revolt
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby Kim O'Hara » Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:35 am

padma norbu wrote:Anyone post this yet?
http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/10/science-says-revolt

New to me - and it's good!
Thanks, padma norbu.

It actually takes us right back to the OP of this thread. I still argue that we are not doomed unless we give up and are certainly doomed if we do give up but yes, the challenge is getting tougher by the day. As Naomi Klein says, our financial system will wreck the planet if we can't throw gravel in its gears so that is exactly what we need to do.

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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby Simon E. » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:00 am

The New Statesman...now there is a credible source. :?
This is the journal which is widely lampooned in the UK, and not just by right-wingers, even BEFORE it invited RUSSELL BRAND to be a guest editor.
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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby Kim O'Hara » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:12 pm

Simon E. wrote:The New Statesman...now there is a credible source. :?
This is the journal which is widely lampooned in the UK, and not just by right-wingers, even BEFORE it invited RUSSELL BRAND to be a guest editor.

I know about ad hominem attacks but I don't have a name for what you do in your first sentence, which is to dismiss an argument solely on the basis of which periodical it appeared in.
Then again, I don't need a name for it to know that it's silly.

If you disagree with the article, Simon, please say why. Then we can (I hope) discuss it sensibly.

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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby Simon E. » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:24 pm

My point is otherwise Mr O'Hara.
( And ' silly ' IS ad hominem..but thats ok. I am not thin-skinned and do not fret even when my most cherished notions are questioned. :smile: )
My point is that if I were a True Believer in man made global warning..and I am a sceptic, but if I were, the last thing I would want is for my credo to be associated with journals who take seriously the posturings of vacuous and dubious celebs like Russell Brand.
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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby padma norbu » Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:07 pm

Simon E. wrote:The New Statesman...now there is a credible source. :?
This is the journal which is widely lampooned in the UK, and not just by right-wingers, even BEFORE it invited RUSSELL BRAND to be a guest editor.

And here I thought you would make fun of his pink hair...
http://complex-systems.ucsd.edu/

Ad hom is good stuff, ain't it? Wins all arguments or so one might think. I used to really dislike Russell Brand, btw, but I'm liking him more and more every time someone posts a new rant of his. The guy makes great points, actually.
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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby padma norbu » Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:12 pm

Simon E. wrote:My point is otherwise Mr O'Hara.
( And ' silly ' IS ad hominem..but thats ok. I am not thin-skinned and do not fret even when my most cherished notions are questioned. :smile: )
My point is that if I were a True Believer in man made global warning..and I am a sceptic, but if I were, the last thing I would want is for my credo to be associated with journals who take seriously the posturings of vacuous and dubious celebs like Russell Brand.
:namaste:


It's funny, but I've had similar ongoing arguments with GMO/Monsanto shills online and when we get down to the facts about the science and the peer review, they start trotting out things like "impact factor." As if a smaller peer-reviewed publication with a low impact factor is somehow less credible than magazines with a larger impact factor, especially when statistics about that very fact say otherwise.

I can tell you one thing, though: I bet Russell Brand could hand you your ass in a verbal confrontation...



Love the end, when he shows the interviwer to be a gigantic phony hypocrite.
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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby padma norbu » Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:19 pm

UN Panel Says It's "Extremely Likely" Climate Change Is Predominantly Man-Made
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57604926/

But, what good will another recent panel of experts do, when Nemo's graph shows the whole thing plain as day? Anyone who wants to believe a handful of scientists over the great majority of them worldwide is hardly worth bothering with, except to taunt them and call them names as Nemo has done. :smile:
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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby Simon E. » Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:25 pm

Oh, ( he said modestly ) I bet he couldn't.
Because unlike the TV interviewers that Brand crosses swords with, for fear of seeming elitist, the ultimate sin according to the BBC, I would not hesitate to point out his shaky grasp on the vocabulary that he waffles so pretentiously in. He constantly uses words that he thinks will give gravitas to his arguments when in fact he clearly has only a tenuous grip of their meaning.
English-english speakers are largely aware of this. Hence the scorn heaped upon his shaggy little bonce even by those sympathetic to his views.
Compare and contrast his florid use of English to those who are actually educated and articulate, like either of the Hitchins brothers, Peter or the late Christopher. Or even from the pro- warming camp , Jonathan Porritt.
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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby padma norbu » Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:33 pm

Simon E. wrote:Oh, ( he said modestly ) I bet he couldn't.
Because unlike the TV interviewers that Brand crosses swords with, for fear of seeming elitist, the ultimate sin according to the BBC, I would not hesitate to point out his shaky grasp on the vocabulary that he waffles so pretentiously in. He constantly uses words that he thinks will give gravitas to his arguments when in fact he clearly has only a tenuous grip of their meaning.
English-english speakers are largely aware of this. Hence the scorn heaped upon his shaggy little bonce even by those sympathetic to his views.
Compare and contrast his florid use of English to those who are actually educated and articulate, like either of the Hitchins brothers, Peter or the late Christopher. Or even from the pro- warming camp , Jonathan Porritt.


He handed you your ass in the video above, as far as I'm concerned, by addressing right off the magazine bit. I'm sure he'd find it really difficult to hand you your ass over the idea that you, being an MD, know that climate change is not man-made because, well, you're an MD or something.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby Simon E. » Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:37 pm

NB the 'gigantic phoney hypocrite ' is a journalist widely respected for his integrity equally by both the left and right in the UK, and who has about 50 points on the IQ scale above Brand, who is transparent to anyone who knows the nuances of Britspeak.
Incidentally the last time that Brand was in the news..oh no that was when he divorced Katy Perry after about three hours of marriage..the time before THAT was when he was sacked from the BBC ( ;) ) for abusing an 80 year old man on air during a prank call.
The man is a despicable tosspot.
Last edited by Simon E. on Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby padma norbu » Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:38 pm

Simon E. wrote:NB the 'gigantic phoney hypocrite ' is a journalist widely respected for his integrity equally by both the left and right in the UK, and who has about 50 points on the IQ scale above Brand, and who is transparent to anyone who knows the nuances of Britspeak.
Incidentally the last time that Brand was in the news..oh no that was when he divorced Katy Perry after about three hours of marriage..the time before THAT was when he was sacked from the BBC ( ;) ) for abusing an 80 year old man on air during a prank call.
The man is a despicable tosspot.


And anyone can see that he was handed his ass as a big phony hypocrite at the end.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Climate Change: We're Doomed

Postby Simon E. » Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:43 pm

Frankly anyone who is reduced to using phrases repeatedly like 'hands him his ass ' whatever that might mean, is unlikely to be able to follow the finer points of any debate.
Like so much of the heat generated by the challenged in this debate it is emotive hot air.
But it becomes clear why someone utterly inarticulate should be impressed by the superficial spin of Brand.
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