How evolution relates to dependent origination?

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Re: How do monks put up with celibacy?

Postby ground » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:16 pm


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Re: How do monks put up with celibacy?

Postby Aemilius » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:50 am

svaha

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Re: How do monks put up with celibacy?

Postby Astus » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:56 am

Aemilius,

In Buddhist cosmology at the beginning of an aeon it is not from cells to humans and definitely not from insentient to sentient but from gods to hell beings and only from sentient to sentient. Beings are born, live and die because of karma and not natural selection. So it is quite opposite to the scientific evolution.

If you want to discuss this further I recommend to open a thread for it.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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How evolution relates to dependent origination?

Postby Individual » Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:26 pm


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Re: How do monks put up with celibacy?

Postby Aemilius » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:00 pm

svaha

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Re: How do monks put up with celibacy?

Postby zerwe » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:41 pm


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Re: How evolution relates to dependent origination?

Postby Lazy_eye » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:45 pm

I don't see any conflict between evolution and DO, because the DO process applies whether we're moving upwards (to the heavens) or downwards (to the animal realms, etc). For that reason, it can apply equally well to an evolutionary or devolutionary model.

But I do wonder if a conflict between evolution and canonical Buddhist cosmology has implications for some other areas of doctrine. According to the sutras, we started off in a sublime state but degraded into our present state after being lured by various material pleasures (food, sex). In that case, the way to transcend our state is obviously via abandoning these habits.

But according to evolution, we began as low forms of life, concerned solely with survival and proliferation, but were able to develop into higher-order beings. That suggests that the evolution of consciousness does not necessarily entail rejection of the natural world but can emerge in conjunction with -- or even as a result of -- natural processes.

Is there a way to reconcile the two paradigms? One angle, perhaps, is to say that evolution simply accounts for the material end of things -- consciousness is always looking for a form to manifest in, and will always manifest in accordance with karma. Thus, as evolution produces forms, these become available to the rebirth-seeking consciousness, which will aim "higher" or "lower" as appropriate.

I'd be interested in hearing how others approach this question. Do you accept evolution and reject the cosmology (in whole or part); do you accept the cosmology and reject evolution, or is there some unifying explanation?

LE

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Re: How evolution relates to dependent origination?

Postby Astus » Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:08 pm

Dependent origination is on one hand a principle, on the other a description of psycho-physical processes, while Buddhist cosmology applies dependent origination on a macrocosmic level. Evolution is a scientific concept based on different principles and established on different methods. Putting them into a single system is minimum unscientific and irrelevant to Buddhism. Just as there is no need to synthetise Buddhism and Hegelianism, so it's meaningless to bring together evolution and Buddhist cosmology.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Re: How evolution relates to dependent origination?

Postby Individual » Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:56 pm


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Re: How evolution relates to dependent origination?

Postby Ogyen » Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:24 pm

this always kind of surprises me.

dependent origination IS evolution.

What's there to relate to?
Image Made from 100% recycled karma




"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Re: How evolution relates to dependent origination?

Postby Astus » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:19 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



Individual
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:20 am

Re: How evolution relates to dependent origination?

Postby Individual » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:46 pm


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Re: How evolution relates to dependent origination?

Postby Astus » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:01 pm

Well, if you can come up with a consistent application of evolution without contradicting the Buddha's words I might reconsider my views about this subject. But you should note that Mahayana is not based on implementing other philosophies into Buddhism.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



Individual
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:20 am

Re: How evolution relates to dependent origination?

Postby Individual » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:37 pm


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Re: How evolution relates to dependent origination?

Postby Lazy_eye » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:04 pm


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Re: How evolution relates to dependent origination?

Postby Astus » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:07 am

Buddhism's goal is to liberate beings from suffering. Science's goal is to understand natural phenomena in a systematic way. This difference in attitude separates them and gives distinct meanings to these creations of the mind. Consequently Buddhist cosmology is not the same as scientific cosmology, and there are many other cosmologies. Then if we want to evaluate these cosmologies there's a need for a measurement. From a Buddhist point of view scientific cosmology doesn't help liberating beings, therefore it has little or no value. From a scientific perspective the Buddhist cosmology is a religious fiction and can be used only within certain social sciences but tells little about our physical environment. But suppose we view them from a Christian or a Neoplatonic system they're both incorrect. However, if we're looking for The Real Cosmology, well, I call that naivety.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



Individual
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:20 am

Re: How evolution relates to dependent origination?

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:51 am


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Re: How evolution relates to dependent origination?

Postby Indrajala » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:10 am

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

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Re: How evolution relates to dependent origination?

Postby ground » Thu Nov 25, 2010 5:55 am


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Re: How evolution relates to dependent origination?

Postby Aemilius » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:16 am

svaha


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