the great vegetarian debate

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:36 pm

Dan Dorje wrote:And you think vegetarianism is nocebo, because ... ?

I don't know what the statement "vegetarianism is nocebo" could mean, but whatever it means, I doubt that I would assent to it.
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 1460
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jikan » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:41 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Jikan wrote:If the Surangama Sutra is your path, then a vegetarian diet is entirely warranted for you.

Not all Buddhist traditions accept the Surangama Sutra as canonical.


Yes. :smile: But it's more than just that one particular sutra. I just happened to mention that one as simon mentioned that one. Although, with regards to meat eating I personally consider the Surangama Sutra secondary so to speak. For me personally, the primary ones would be the Nirvana sutra, Brama Net sutra and lastly, because I prefer zen, the Lankavatara sutra.


OK. What, specifically, do you see in the Lankavatara sutra (or the others you cite... the Brahma Net Sutra seems an obvious choice but not many here will be familiar with it) that coincides explicitly with your position? Where do these sutras demand vegetarianism of practitioners?
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4290
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:56 pm

Doesn't Brahma net forbid Onions, garlic etc. as well, or am I thinking of something else?
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2152
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Dan Dorje » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:59 pm

Simon E. wrote:Once more Dan Dorje, proof of the diversity to be found in life's rich pageant. :smile:

My experience has been the exact opposite.
Four times in my life I have had periods of eating exclusively vegetarian diets. These ranged from lacto-veg and vegan to macrobiotic. And ran from a year to four years in duration.
Each time I felt vaguely ill and listless.
Each time with the reintroduction of meat and fish into my diet my health improved within days.

One man's meat is literally another man's poison. And so is one man's tofu... :smile:

Maybe you haven't eat enough proteins while you have been vegetarian...
Or maybe the diet change was too quickly for your body to adapt.

Anyway, I don't think that everyone should be vegetarian.
I hold in high regards teachers that are not vegetarians.
Dan Dorje
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:26 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jikan » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:39 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Doesn't Brahma net forbid Onions, garlic etc. as well, or am I thinking of something else?


Yes. There's a precept against the "five pungent vegetables." These include alliums such as garlic & onions.
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4290
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:43 pm

Jikan wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Doesn't Brahma net forbid Onions, garlic etc. as well, or am I thinking of something else?


Yes. There's a precept against the "five pungent vegetables." These include alliums such as garlic & onions.



I wonder if the same vegetarians who hold Brahma Net vows definitive also do this, and if not, why exclude this set of rules, while adhering to no meat ones?

Might be a very practical answer, but i'm curious to hear it.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2152
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jikan » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:49 pm

Closing this thread to exclude off-topic and personal posts.

***

Reopening this thread again to encourage meaningful discussion on this topic. There remain many questions unanswered. I've removed some off-topic posts.

Kindly refrain from personal attacks and stick to the topic. If you must make it personal, please do so by personal message, or as one user has suggested in a post that has hence been removed, get a room.

:heart: :heart: :heart:
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4290
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Adi » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:35 pm

padma norbu wrote:...Sometimes I wonder if the paradoxes people see in their own lives reflects the multifaceted perfection of the dharma. Were these different ideas we find in Buddhist texts really just 'mistakes' or 'later additions' by scribes or were all these teachings put out there by the Buddhas on purpose as part of the 84,000 different teachings for different mindsets? And maybe those of us who need a lesson develop health problems pertaining to the issue we need most instruction on?


I can certainly see my own one-dimensional "me!" thinking being reflected in "the multifaceted perfection of the dharma." I think your point about different teachings for different mindsets is spot-on and in accord with my understanding of Buddhism in general.

We are so fortunate to have so many different teachings and not be confined in approach, views or methods. I hope everyone is happy with their own choices in this matter of what to eat and will accord everyone else the same chance at happiness. And if you're not happy, then there is always another teaching to consider! :smile:

Adi
Adi
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:45 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:01 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I wonder if the same vegetarians who hold Brahma Net vows definitive also do this, and if not, why exclude this set of rules, while adhering to no meat ones?

Might be a very practical answer, but i'm curious to hear it.
Personally I was vegetarian well before I was a Buddhist so... but it seems to me that a practical problem re. being vegetarian/vegan AND not eating the pungent herbs would be one of extraordinarily tasteless food.

I cannot imagine vegetarian food without at least some onion/leek/shallot and garlic in it. Included in the naughty pungents list is coriander as well!!! Coriander? What could somebody possibly have against coriander? Okay, garlic and onions I can understand, especially raw, but coriander??? I mean, WTF???

Recently I met a vegan that has gluten intolerance. Now that was amusing (in a sadistic sort of way). Poor guy. We were out for lunch (in Turkey) and there was bugger all he could eat. To cap it all off, in Turkey they use meat stock in just about everything (vege and lentil soups, rice, in vege dishes instead of water, hell , they even have a sweet rice pudding with shredded chicken in it for crying out loud), so eating out was a nightmare for him.

Another time I was out for dinner (in Greece this time) with a Hindu Brahman acquaintance. Try finding a Greek dish with no onions or garlic in it! Hah! Fat chance.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7905
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nemo » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:09 am

Jikan wrote:Closing this thread to exclude off-topic and personal posts.

***
Reopening this thread again to encourage meaningful discussion on this topic. There remain many questions unanswered. I've removed some off-topic posts.

Kindly refrain from personal attacks and stick to the topic. If you must make it personal, please do so by personal message, or as one user has suggested in a post that has hence been removed, get a room.

:heart: :heart: :heart:

The posts removed were mostly rabid vegetarians looking neurotic and desperate. They are actually one of the best arguments not to become a vegetarian. Removing them is unfair IMO.
User avatar
Nemo
 
Posts: 586
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:11 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:Included in the naughty pungents list is coriander as well!!!

Herbism is one of the most insidious ideologies ever cooked up, so to speak.
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 1460
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:13 am

Free the herbs!!! :guns:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7905
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:15 am

Nemo wrote:The posts removed were mostly rabid vegetarians looking neurotic and desperate. They are actually one of the best arguments not to become a vegetarian. Removing them is unfair IMO.
I would say that they are actually one of the best arguments for not becoming neurotic and desperate about any type of view. ;)
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7905
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:23 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:I wonder if the same vegetarians who hold Brahma Net vows definitive also do this, and if not, why exclude this set of rules, while adhering to no meat ones?

Might be a very practical answer, but i'm curious to hear it.
Personally I was vegetarian well before I was a Buddhist so... but it seems to me that a practical problem re. being vegetarian/vegan AND not eating the pungent herbs would be one of extraordinarily tasteless food.

I cannot imagine vegetarian food without at least some onion/leek/shallot and garlic in it. Included in the naughty pungents list is coriander as well!!! Coriander? What could somebody possibly have against coriander? Okay, garlic and onions I can understand, especially raw, but coriander??? I mean, WTF???

Recently I met a vegan that has gluten intolerance. Now that was amusing (in a sadistic sort of way). Poor guy. We were out for lunch (in Turkey) and there was bugger all he could eat. To cap it all off, in Turkey they use meat stock in just about everything (vege and lentil soups, rice, in vege dishes instead of water, hell , they even have a sweet rice pudding with shredded chicken in it for crying out loud), so eating out was a nightmare for him.

Another time I was out for dinner (in Greece this time) with a Hindu Brahman acquaintance. Try finding a Greek dish with no onions or garlic in it! Hah! Fat chance.


My wife eats semi-kosher, I can't have gluten and eat very little dairy lol, in addition i'm recovering from H Pylori infection and basically I actually can't have anything pungent otherwise i'm in pain. it sucks man, it's basically eating like a little baby. If I could still get my kids to eat I might go back to being vegetarian just to make things simple! Going to restaurants for us is generally ridiculous, with a few exceptions.

So you don't feel the lack of animal protein in your Muay Thai? I actually went back to meat eating partially because I gassed so easily and felt weaker with martial arts and exercise as a vegetarian, not to mention other aspects of life of course. I did Judo for a few years, just thinking about attempting that on my old vegetarian diet makes me want to go take a nap;)
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2152
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nemo » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:58 am

I wish there was more research into basic nutrition. Carnitine helped me cut a few days of meat out of the week. I would love to take a pill, still have tons of energy and not get fat living off of veggies. B12 shots are so cheap now at 3.69$ a vial at Costco I would definitely recommend them for any vegetarians feeling a bit chilled this winter. CoQ10 seems to help as well and makes the carnitine work better. I really think vegetarians who are not overly rigid should take some krill oil everyday as well.

The winter is coming to the frozen North, It may not be as bad as the old Nenet saying, “If you don't drink warm blood and eat fresh meat, you are doomed to die on the tundra.” But take good care of your health in the winter. Get some meat on your bones.
User avatar
Nemo
 
Posts: 586
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jikan » Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:29 am

Nemo wrote:
Jikan wrote:Closing this thread to exclude off-topic and personal posts.

***
Reopening this thread again to encourage meaningful discussion on this topic. There remain many questions unanswered. I've removed some off-topic posts.

Kindly refrain from personal attacks and stick to the topic. If you must make it personal, please do so by personal message, or as one user has suggested in a post that has hence been removed, get a room.

:heart: :heart: :heart:

The posts removed were mostly rabid vegetarians looking neurotic and desperate. They are actually one of the best arguments not to become a vegetarian. Removing them is unfair IMO.


Not in the instance quoted above. That said...

Moderators have removed some seemly pro-vegetarian posts (or rather anti-omnivorian? posts) that contravened the ToS in one way or another (or multiples of these) in recent days. I didn't order the pupu platter.
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4290
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:01 am

Jikan wrote:
Nemo wrote:
Jikan wrote:Closing this thread to exclude off-topic and personal posts.

***
Reopening this thread again to encourage meaningful discussion on this topic. There remain many questions unanswered. I've removed some off-topic posts.

Kindly refrain from personal attacks and stick to the topic. If you must make it personal, please do so by personal message, or as one user has suggested in a post that has hence been removed, get a room.

:heart: :heart: :heart:

The posts removed were mostly rabid vegetarians looking neurotic and desperate. They are actually one of the best arguments not to become a vegetarian. Removing them is unfair IMO.


Not in the instance quoted above. That said...

Moderators have removed some seemly pro-vegetarian posts (or rather anti-omnivorian? posts) that contravened the ToS in one way or another (or multiples of these) in recent days. I didn't order the pupu platter.

You two should get a room. :smile:
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 1460
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:32 am

Jikan wrote:
seeker242 wrote:For me personally, the primary ones would be the Nirvana sutra, Brama Net sutra and lastly, because I prefer zen, the Lankavatara sutra.


OK. What, specifically, do you see in the Lankavatara sutra (or the others you cite... the Brahma Net Sutra seems an obvious choice but not many here will be familiar with it) that coincides explicitly with your position? Where do these sutras demand vegetarianism of practitioners?


The Lankavatara Sutra is very specific and blatantly anti-meat. Here are just a few references to the many lines against meat in this Sutra:

Mahamati, there is generally an offensive odour to a corpse, which goes against nature; therefore, let the Bodhisattva refrain from eating meat. Therefore, Mahamati, let the Bodhisattva, who is ever desirous of purity in his discipline, wholly refrain from eating meat.

Meat is not agreeable to the wise: it has a nauseating odour, it causes a bad reputation, it is food for the carnivorous; I say1 this, Mahamati, it is not to be eaten.

There is no meat to be regarded as pure in three ways: not premeditated, not asked for, and not impelled; therefore, refrain from eating meat.

Therefore, do not eat meat which will cause terror among people, because it hinders the truth of emancipation; not to eat meat-- this is the mark of the wise.


http://www.fodian.net/world/0672_08.html

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1610
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:23 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:26 am

Yeah I fully know (Lankavatara is one of my favorites BTW) and accept that there are unequivocal messages of vegetarianism in a number of sutra. I just don't think this, of and within itself is enough to shut the book on the subject. There are also unequivocal messages about things like the status of women in some sutra that many people seem to take a different view of, so yeah..I know the sutras say these things, but the sutras say a lot of things and it in no way absolves us from figuring it out ourselves.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2152
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:13 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:So you don't feel the lack of animal protein in your Muay Thai? I actually went back to meat eating partially because I gassed so easily and felt weaker with martial arts and exercise as a vegetarian, not to mention other aspects of life of course. I did Judo for a few years, just thinking about attempting that on my old vegetarian diet makes me want to go take a nap;)
On the gas front, well... :emb: But on the lack of energy front? No. I train at least two hours a day and am 171cm height and weigh 71kg (at 45 years of age). I have the typical lean physique of a Muay Thai boxer without taking any supplements whatsoever. I do a regular midday nap, but here in rural Greece it is the norm. On the days when I do the two two hour sessions I don't have time to nap and yet I still have no problems making it through the session.

I eat very little refined sugar and have reduced my bread consumption drastically. Bread was a source of bloating and pain for me so... When I do eat bread it is either wholegrain, multigrain, or barley bread. I also don't drink coffee and alcohol. I drink quite a bit of black tea (a habit I picked up during my many visits to neighbouring Turkey). Luckily we have access to lots of locally grown (with native seeds too) fresh fruits, vegetables and pulses (and my own olive oil). Many of the small local producers (and my father) refuse to use pesticides etc... so the food is high quality. We (and many sellers) even go out and pick wild mushrooms, endives, wild asparagus, herbs, etc...

Given these factors you can see that maintaining a high quality vegetarian diet is cheap and plausible where I live. Being lacto-ovo, it also means I get to eat locally produced cheeses and fresh (real) free range eggs. Truth is that, even in the big cities, one can still buy fresh and cheap vegetables from small scale producers selling at the weekly open air markets.
B12 shots are so cheap now at 3.69$ a vial at Costco I would definitely recommend them for any vegetarians feeling a bit chilled this winter.
Injecting B12??? Dude! Why would you want to do that when you can use this yummy (well, it's an acquired taste, personally I find it delicious) stuff:

marmite and vegemite.jpg
marmite and vegemite.jpg (8.84 KiB) Viewed 176 times
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7905
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: asunthatneversets and 12 guests

>