An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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mikenz66
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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:50 pm

PS. I thought t his wasn't supposed to be a debate...
:sage:
Mike

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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby Truth_Seeker1989 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:54 pm

Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).

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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby Truth_Seeker1989 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:56 pm

Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).

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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby Truth_Seeker1989 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:00 pm

Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).

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mikenz66
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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:11 pm


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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby Truth_Seeker1989 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:16 pm

Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).

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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby Truth_Seeker1989 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:55 pm

Thank you, Mike. I decided to not be lazy and read through the links you gave me. There are no past lives, the Buddha must have used it as a tool to teach the uneducated, or those who could not comprehend truly, no-self. And because we are all one, I suppose he was right to say that he was all of those past lives. Because I am that, and that is me.


This essentially says that you are not born into another realm, physically. But your conciousness can become unto like an animal, a Ghost, an Asura, etc. He must have meant it all as a mindset, a state of being.

I was just trying to understand the Rebirth that is told to so many people, the one similar to an Afterlife. Where you go from body to body, life to life.



Bhikkhus! So it is that dependent on ignorance, volitional activities arise; dependent on volitional activity, Consciousness arises; dependent on Conscious ness, mind-and-body (namarupa) arises; dependent on namarupa, the six sense-bases arise; dependent on the six sense-bases, Contact arises; dependent on Contact, Sensation arises; dependent on Sensation, Craving arises; dependent on Craving, Clinging11 arises; dependent on Clinging, bhava (kamma actions, causing further existence) arises; dependent on bhava, rebirth arises; dependent on rebirth, there arise ageing, death, grief, lamentation, pain, distress and despair. In this way occurs the arising of this entire mass of dukkha.'13
Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).

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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby Ben » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:41 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby manas » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:47 pm

Last edited by manas on Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby Truth_Seeker1989 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:16 am

Ahhhh. I understand what it means. And I know in the end it isn't important to our practice. I just simply could not grasp the Theravada idea of Rebirth, because I had percieved it in an entirely different way, one that wasn't taught in the Suttas. All cleared up now though. Back to the important questions! Like... Why is my coffee cold?!
Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).

Truth_Seeker1989
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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby Truth_Seeker1989 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:21 am

Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).

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manas
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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby manas » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:35 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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mikenz66
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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:10 am


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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:16 am


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Ben
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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby Ben » Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:53 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby Hugo » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:14 am


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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby ground » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:53 am


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gavesako
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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby gavesako » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:11 am

Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
- Translations and history of Pali texts
- Sutta translations

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Mr Man
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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby Mr Man » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:49 am

Dear Ven Gavesako
I personally would feel that "scientism" has more validity than the totally non-rational view in discussion (as there is more common ground). Using the non-rational as "evidence" really doesn't work, in my opinion. I personally feel some unease with the idea that views can be dismissed with the term scientism. At the same time I would agree that pure rationality is not the tool for understanding the Buddhist teachings.
:anjali:

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Re: An Inquiry/Challenge/Q&A on Literal Rebirth, not a Debate!

Postby gavesako » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:56 am

There are all kinds of scientific theories which are changing all the time. For example:


Tim Parks - The Mind Outside My Head

http://integral-options.blogspot.co.uk/ ... -head.html


Everything we see, hear, touch, taste, and smell, Manzotti argues, involves the same creation of a physical unity—the moment of consciousness—sustained by processes within and without the head. The room, or part of a room, that you see now, including the screen on which you’re reading this blog, becomes, in combination with your faculties, a whole; this is consciousness. It happens in time, and it takes time (consciousness of visual phenomena seems to require at least 100 milliseconds to occur), and it changes constantly.

But Manzotti is a scientist and for him this is all physical and objectively measured - he has no interest in Buddhist ideas or any form of idealism. Even the philosophical versions of extended mind would probably be too "soft" for him. However, he is introducing into materialist consciousness studies the notion that mind is not confined to the skull and, further, that believing it is allows for all kinds of additional beliefs, such as immortality, a concrete unchanging self, and very strict forms of moral responsibility.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
- Translations and history of Pali texts
- Sutta translations


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