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Understanding Dependent Origination - Dhamma Wheel

Understanding Dependent Origination

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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polarbear101
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Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby polarbear101 » Tue May 08, 2012 9:33 pm

Hey everyone, I'm surprised dhamma wheel doesn't have a giant Dependent Origination thread. Anyway, how do you guys understand D.O., it's so complex I tried writing out how i thought of it but then I realized that was insufficient so I deleted that and was just hoping for some input from people with a deeper understanding of it.

Some questions to think about

Do you believe in moment to moment D.O. along with 1 life, 2 lives, 3 lives/ some other model or just the latter options?

Remember Sati, the monk who thought that it was "just this consciousness" that travels from life to life and how he was rebuked because consciousness only arises dependent on conditions.

How does the Sati story mesh with the fact that when the body dies buddha said that consciousness is craving/clinging driven until it (or the process I'll call, it) finds a new body/realm to inhabit like fire blown by wind until it finds more brush to burn?

Also, let's remember that Kamma is like a field, consciousness is the seed for future birth, and craving/clinging is the sustenance/nutriment

Now, how do you explain that? All I can think is that Kamma is the range of possible outcomes for consciousness to establish itself in and craving/clinging is what allows/causes the consciousness to arise from past karma. And what I just wrote is in no way a satisfactory explanation to me.


Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, I will describe & analyze dependent co-arising for you.

"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.

"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.

"And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming.

"And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging.

"And what is craving? These six are classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for smells, craving for tastes, craving for tactile sensations, craving for ideas. This is called craving.

"And what is feeling? These six are classes of feeling: feeling born from eye-contact, feeling born from ear-contact, feeling born from nose-contact, feeling born from tongue-contact, feeling born from body-contact, feeling born from intellect-contact. This is called feeling.

"And what is contact? These six are classes of contact: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, intellect-contact. This is called contact.

"And what are the six sense media? These six are sense media: the eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose-medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium. These are called the six sense media.

"And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form.

"And what is consciousness? These six are classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness.

"And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are called fabrications.

"And what is ignorance? Not knowing stress, not knowing the origination of stress, not knowing the cessation of stress, not knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called ignorance.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Here are some sources on D.O., some I have read and some I haven't but will get around too it

http://www.vipassati.ch/english/books/P ... ebook.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... coming.pdf

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

http://www.leighb.com/deporg1.htm

http://www.leighb.com/talks.htm#do2010

http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/coarise.htm

http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/1999a/christina.htm

http://nichirenscoffeehouse.net/Ryuei/depen-orig.html
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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mikenz66
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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby mikenz66 » Tue May 08, 2012 9:45 pm


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polarbear101
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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby polarbear101 » Tue May 08, 2012 10:04 pm

Sweet, Thanks

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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retrofuturist
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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 08, 2012 10:47 pm

Greetings,

Don't get me started!

:tongue:

Actually, I did prepare a one-pager outlining my understanding of Dependent Origination quite some time ago, and I've been meaning to revisit it (as these things should be a work in progress, as understanding becomes more refined), but I haven't got around to it.

I'll try to remember to update it and I'll present it back here (or in a linked topic) for your consideration.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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polarbear101
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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby polarbear101 » Tue May 08, 2012 11:59 pm

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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mikenz66
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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby mikenz66 » Wed May 09, 2012 12:12 am


dhamma_newb
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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby dhamma_newb » Sun May 13, 2012 12:29 pm

I am trying to learn Dependent Origination too. I found an article titled which looks like it will be helpful in our studies and practice. I've also included it as a pdf file for easy download. Hope this helps!
Attachments
Dr Jenny Dependent Origination Meditation.pdf
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The watched mind brings happiness.
Dhp 36

I am larger and better than I thought. I did not know I held so much goodness.
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nowheat
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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby nowheat » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:05 am

Timely question for me. I'm just in the middle of a series of blogposts that describes the way a secular understanding of dependent origination can be seen in daily life and practice. I'd be glad of comments here if anyone is interested in a DO that doesn't discuss karma or rebirth at all.

http://secularbuddhism.org/2012/06/07/a ... -contents/

:namaste:

dhammapal
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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby dhammapal » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:06 am

See: by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (112 page pdf)

With metta / dhammapal.






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mikenz66
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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:26 pm


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gavesako
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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby gavesako » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:34 pm

Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
- Translations and history of Pali texts
- Sutta translations

suttametta
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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby suttametta » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:40 pm

Punnaji does an excellent job:

http://www.bhantepunnaji.com/ongoing.htm

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mikenz66
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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:44 pm


suttametta
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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby suttametta » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:01 am

I think it hinges upon the way he translates the terms differently. Avijja is unconsciousness. Meaning the process can only happen unconsciously and stops when you become conscious of it. Sankhara is constructions: mental, verbal and body (respiration), Vinnana is perception, Namarupa is name and image, Salayatana is the six senses as usual, Phassa is sense experience, Vedana is feeling (pleasure or pain), Tanha is the emotional reaction (rather than suffering), Upadana is personalization of the emotion, Bhava is existence (nounifying an activity), Jati is birth, Jara-Marana is old age and death. The emphasis in the difference here is on the translation of tanha as emotional reaction, avijja as unconsciously happening and namarupa being all in the mind so that the awareness of the process collapses the causal net.

He also translates sati as introversion of attention, rather than mindfulness, such that the method is to pay attention to the change in the body, the sensation, the feeling/mood and the thought (dhamma) when an emotional reaction begins. Simply becoming aware of these changes causes the process to stop. Then, the mind becomes tranquil, enters the fourth jhana and you see how these 12-links operate. When the reaction finally stops because of this, the mind becomes perfectly still and that's nibbana.

This is a pretty simple overview. It might be leaving things out, but this is the general gist.

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mikenz66
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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:04 am

Thanks for the summary!

:anjali:
Mike

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cooran
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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby cooran » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:57 am

Hello all,

Interesting article by Ajahn Brahmavamso.

PATICCA-SAMUPPADA - DEPENDENT ORIGINATION
- Introduction
- Dependent Origination .. Standard Description
- The meaning of the Twelve Factors, as defined by the Buddha
- Causality and the Twelve Factors
- On the meaning of Sanditthika and Akalika
- Causality and the necessary and sufficient conditions
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... nation.htm

with metta
Chris
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---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

Postby nowheat » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:22 am


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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

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Re: Understanding Dependent Origination

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