Deleting Dukkha

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Deleting Dukkha

Postby rachmiel » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:46 pm

A bit of a silly question, perhaps, but that never stopped me before, so ...

Buddha provided the world with a methodology for eliminating personal suffering. Following that methodology entails loss ... of the pleasures of "un-right" (but enjoyable) thought. Depending on just how pleasurable one finds one's un-right thought, that loss can be HUGE, like a personal death.

Is it possible to have everything in one's life/mind remain (pretty much) the same, but just to eliminate the dukkha from it?

If, for example, one did not attach to any thoughts, rather let them arise, live out their lives, and decay ... the suffering would be taken out of the equation without radically altering one's flow of thought.

Yes? No? Maybe? (None of the above?) ;-)
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Re: Deleting Dukkha

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:41 pm

nothing stays the same so no its not possible to eliminate dukkha while everything remains the same. for the reason is impermanence.

but to say something more helpful maybe, i think it is said in the teachings that you dont try to control the thoughts or force your thoughts to change. rather you let go and let be, and the positive transformation happens when you are not suppressing your thoughts and mental stuff. i dont think you need to alter your thoughts forcefully to eradicate dukkha. rather you need to study and apply correct meditation to change your perspective and view.. i think this brings about a natural transformation which alleviates dukkha.

but on the other hand if you cling to a certain ''unright thought '' i think that will itself be a cause for suffering and doesnt offer in itself an antidote to a release from the suffering of it.

also this label '' unright '' itself can create suffering whatnot a bunch of mental burden related to a mere label.

i think it is impossible to alleviate suffering if you dont familiarize yourself with the correct view and apply that in meditation and post meditation and uphold it in daily life. that will alleviate dukkha. nothing changes yet everything changes.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Deleting Dukkha

Postby Inge » Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:21 pm

rachmiel wrote:A bit of a silly question, perhaps, but that never stopped me before, so ...

Buddha provided the world with a methodology for eliminating personal suffering. Following that methodology entails loss ... of the pleasures of "un-right" (but enjoyable) thought. Depending on just how pleasurable one finds one's un-right thought, that loss can be HUGE, like a personal death.

Is it possible to have everything in one's life/mind remain (pretty much) the same, but just to eliminate the dukkha from it?

If, for example, one did not attach to any thoughts, rather let them arise, live out their lives, and decay ... the suffering would be taken out of the equation without radically altering one's flow of thought.

Yes? No? Maybe? (None of the above?) ;-)


When phenomena are neither grasped, rejected, nor ignored, they just unfold of their own accord, and suffering would not enter the picture.
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Re: Deleting Dukkha

Postby dude » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:58 pm

rachmiel wrote:A bit of a silly question, perhaps, but that never stopped me before, so ...

Buddha provided the world with a methodology for eliminating personal suffering. Following that methodology entails loss ... of the pleasures of "un-right" (but enjoyable) thought. Depending on just how pleasurable one finds one's un-right thought, that loss can be HUGE, like a personal death.

Is it possible to have everything in one's life/mind remain (pretty much) the same, but just to eliminate the dukkha from it?

If, for example, one did not attach to any thoughts, rather let them arise, live out their lives, and decay ... the suffering would be taken out of the equation without radically altering one's flow of thought.

Yes? No? Maybe? (None of the above?) ;-)


What you suggest is valid. Unskillful thoughts are a cause of suffering. If you can abandon attachment to it, you can observe it for what it is, penetrate it, and perceive for yourself why the thought in itself is suffering. After that it's no loss at all, because who wants to suffer?
............in other words, what KonchokZ said.
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Re: Deleting Dukkha

Postby rachmiel » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:09 am

I guess what motivated me to post this question is that I notice that when I practice mindfulness, my sense of humor/whimsy pretty much disappears. (Normally it's a huge part of my way of being in the world and gives me (and others) lots of joy.) I become kind of earnest and quiet and passive, a bit dull, automaton-ish. If this is the price of mindfulness, I'm not at all sure I want to pay it. The loss of my way of feeling joie de vivre is way too expensive.

But, if the joie de vivre can continue *without* the suffering ... I'd take that deal. :-)
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Re: Deleting Dukkha

Postby KonchokZoepa » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:33 am

maybe you practice mindfulness too rigidly. or maybe your joys and jokes of ignorant deluded nature and you are more alert and not so twisty with your thoughts when practicing mindfulness. i guess observing will give you an answer to your ''why'' question.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Deleting Dukkha

Postby KonchokZoepa » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:33 am

as to say something more, i dont seem mindfulness altering that much in anyway not in that sense that you are talking about, so maybe you are bit too tense or rigid with it and have some preconceived idea what mindfulness is....?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Deleting Dukkha

Postby lobster » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:53 am

rachmiel wrote:I guess what motivated me to post this question is that I notice that when I practice mindfulness, my sense of humor/whimsy pretty much disappears. (Normally it's a huge part of my way of being in the world and gives me (and others) lots of joy.) I become kind of earnest and quiet and passive, a bit dull, automaton-ish. If this is the price of mindfulness, I'm not at all sure I want to pay it. The loss of my way of feeling joie de vivre is way too expensive.

But, if the joie de vivre can continue *without* the suffering ... I'd take that deal. :-)


As soon as I am 'doing meditation' or getting quiet, passive, feeling tranquillisation, chances are something is being done unskilfully . . . :smile:
You are describing spiritual medication, not meditation which increases the joy :woohoo:
Try mindful dancing with a corpse for Halloween . . . always makes me laugh . . . :hug:
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Re: Deleting Dukkha

Postby Wayfarer » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:57 am

I think as people in the world we need to acknowledge that we are invested in phenomena. We have interests, we are not above that even if we think we ought to be.
Learn to do good, refrain from evil, purify the mind ~ this is the teaching of the Buddhas
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Re: Deleting Dukkha

Postby oushi » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:27 am

rachmiel wrote:I guess what motivated me to post this question is that I notice that when I practice mindfulness, my sense of humor/whimsy pretty much disappears. (Normally it's a huge part of my way of being in the world and gives me (and others) lots of joy.) I become kind of earnest and quiet and passive, a bit dull, automaton-ish. If this is the price of mindfulness, I'm not at all sure I want to pay it. The loss of my way of feeling joie de vivre is way too expensive.

But, if the joie de vivre can continue *without* the suffering ... I'd take that deal. :-)

Maybe consult it with the person that taught you this practice.
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Re: Deleting Dukkha

Postby Paul » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:05 pm

rachmiel wrote:I guess what motivated me to post this question is that I notice that when I practice mindfulness, my sense of humor/whimsy pretty much disappears. (Normally it's a huge part of my way of being in the world and gives me (and others) lots of joy.) I become kind of earnest and quiet and passive, a bit dull, automaton-ish. If this is the price of mindfulness, I'm not at all sure I want to pay it. The loss of my way of feeling joie de vivre is way too expensive.

But, if the joie de vivre can continue *without* the suffering ... I'd take that deal. :-)


Well look at the great practitioners - they all have very healthy senses of humour. Almost child-like in many instances.

I also think that the following line from Tilopa is worth mulling over: "You are not bound by perceiving, But by clinging. So cut your clinging, Naropa!"
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Deleting Dukkha

Postby Simon E. » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:17 pm

rachmiel wrote:I guess what motivated me to post this question is that I notice that when I practice mindfulness, my sense of humor/whimsy pretty much disappears. (Normally it's a huge part of my way of being in the world and gives me (and others) lots of joy.) I become kind of earnest and quiet and passive, a bit dull, automaton-ish. If this is the price of mindfulness, I'm not at all sure I want to pay it. The loss of my way of feeling joie de vivre is way too expensive.

But, if the joie de vivre can continue *without* the suffering ... I'd take that deal. :-)

Meditation is not about feeling good..or feeling bad...or feeling whoo-hoo.
Its about waking up. Its about what is. With no additives or subtractions..its simple.
So simple we feel we have to plaster it over with feelings, or bliss.
As CTR used to say..its simply sitting with life as is. On the rocks. With no soda.
As others have said many experienced meditators are amusing and amused and relaxed.
But there is a world of difference between that and the kind of forced jollity and cracking wise that disguise our habitual fearfulness and anxiety.
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Re: Deleting Dukkha

Postby seeker242 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:08 pm

rachmiel wrote:I guess what motivated me to post this question is that I notice that when I practice mindfulness, my sense of humor/whimsy pretty much disappears. (Normally it's a huge part of my way of being in the world and gives me (and others) lots of joy.) I become kind of earnest and quiet and passive, a bit dull, automaton-ish. If this is the price of mindfulness, I'm not at all sure I want to pay it. The loss of my way of feeling joie de vivre is way too expensive.

But, if the joie de vivre can continue *without* the suffering ... I'd take that deal. :-)



I don't know. People like the Dalai Lama are pretty mindful and have a pretty good sense of humor as do many other wise teachers. I have never met a good teacher that acted like a robot. The best most wise ones are full of life, animation, vitality and mindfulness.
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Re: Deleting Dukkha

Postby lobster » Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:12 am

seeker242 wrote:I have never met a good teacher that acted like a robot. The best most wise ones are full of life, animation, vitality and mindfulness.


Exactly so.
More like a reboot than a robot. :twothumbsup:

You will find more bad students than bad teachers. After all some of us learn from the worst teachers, including ourselves. Some never learn, they expect someone to teach them a lesson. However who would take that responsibility unless overwhelmed with joy, humour and an empty bag of tricks and treats . . . ? :group:
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Re: Deleting Dukkha

Postby Simon E. » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:09 am

If they are ' overwhelmed' by anything..they might teach and learn all sorts of stuff. But its unlikely to be the Buddha's Dharma.
Genuine Buddhist teachers fall into several camps. Some are jovial. Some are severe But they are all in control of their speech. Even the jovial ones. In fact particularly the jovial ones.
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