Psychedelics

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:22 am

I would say that there is no difference between suffering and Tathagata. Both are the same, but because of ignorant thinking that we know suffering, or we can know it, it takes a very unpleasant shape. Same goes for Tathagata. Because of that we have this beautifully direct, but disturbing teaching of Linji: "Awakening and Nirvana are like tethering posts for donkeys."
When the goal is established intellectually , it automatically enables suffering.

"Not searching", in all its various forms, is a different type of path.

Although it is a different path, it's also a fruition. All paths meet up in "no searching". Thus by definition, use of psychedelics cannot be the fruition. Nor can it be any other "use".
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby M.G. » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:34 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
M.G. wrote:I've talked to people who have told me they took psychedelics and had fun, or had visions, or felt threatened, or gained some sort of insight. I've never had anyone tell me "I took psychedelics and since then I've been less self-grasping."

Now u have


Fair enough.

You've now met somebody who used drugs for years, thought they had lasting spiritual benefits as adjuncts to dharma practice, then changed his mind.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby padma norbu » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:33 am

Too much nonsense and not enough wisdom comes from psychedelics. When was the last time you saw a bunch of lamas standing around laughing about the crazy stuff they saw in their visions and not being able to articulate or remember what it all meant?
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:13 am

Who knows... Don't you think that we don't know enough to make such a statement? I prefer to speak about things I know myself.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby M.G. » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:17 pm

padma norbu wrote:Too much nonsense and not enough wisdom comes from psychedelics. When was the last time you saw a bunch of lamas standing around laughing about the crazy stuff they saw in their visions and not being able to articulate or remember what it all meant?


:good:

And that sums up my feelings on this topic. I have no horror of psychedelics; I have lots of friends who still use them and are basically doing OK. What I mainly see is that the ratio of "crazy" to "wisdom" derived from their use tilts in an unfavorable direction.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby baileyd123 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:15 am

This entire reality is an illusion, a mirage, a shadow play, a facade, empty of essence, created by the senses and tempered by a hefty dose of delusion; why would you want to create more illusion? Why make it even more psychedelic and confusing? I figure one would be trying to see through the illusion, not make it more confusing.


There are many who would argue that these substances aid in cutting through illusion, such as Timothy Leary or Terence McKenna. I am not saying I agree with this, I just think this perspective should be presented.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:12 am

oushi wrote:I would say that there is no difference between suffering and Tathagata. Both are the same, but because of ignorant thinking that we know suffering, or we can know it, it takes a very unpleasant shape. Same goes for Tathagata. Because of that we have this beautifully direct, but disturbing teaching of Linji: "Awakening and Nirvana are like tethering posts for donkeys."
When the goal is established intellectually , it automatically enables suffering.
Saying it, understanding it and realising it are completely different things.

A parrot can say it.

An intellectual can understand it.

A Siddha realises it.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Simon E. » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:17 am

baileyd123 wrote:
This entire reality is an illusion, a mirage, a shadow play, a facade, empty of essence, created by the senses and tempered by a hefty dose of delusion; why would you want to create more illusion? Why make it even more psychedelic and confusing? I figure one would be trying to see through the illusion, not make it more confusing.


There are many who would argue that these substances aid in cutting through illusion, such as Timothy Leary or Terence McKenna. I am not saying I agree with this, I just think this perspective should be presented.

Did either Terence McKenna or Timothy Leary strike you as one who had cut through illusion ?
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:38 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
oushi wrote:I would say that there is no difference between suffering and Tathagata. Both are the same, but because of ignorant thinking that we know suffering, or we can know it, it takes a very unpleasant shape. Same goes for Tathagata. Because of that we have this beautifully direct, but disturbing teaching of Linji: "Awakening and Nirvana are like tethering posts for donkeys."
When the goal is established intellectually , it automatically enables suffering.
Saying it, understanding it and realising it are completely different things.

From an intellectual perspective...
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:34 pm

professor parrot.jpg
professor parrot.jpg (33.42 KiB) Viewed 281 times
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:50 pm

Only an intellectual.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:54 pm

Or an idiot.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:56 pm

And, which one are you?
An idiot intellectual would be one that talks about differences he cannot see.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:01 pm

Would you categorise Nagarjuna as an idiot intellectual?

He has plenty to say in regards to your "...there is no difference between suffering and Tathagata. Both are the same..." statements.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:05 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Would you categorise Nagarjuna as an idiot intellectual? He has plenty to say in regards to your statement.

Can't wait to hear from him, didn't know he's still alive... say hello and he can proceed.
Or you are joking, and you will just start parroting him?
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:08 pm

oushi wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Would you categorise Nagarjuna as an idiot intellectual? He has plenty to say in regards to your statement.

Can't wait to hear from him, didn't know he's still alive... say hello and he can proceed.
Or you are joking, and you will just start parroting him?
Now you are just being an idiot.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:14 pm

You can start biting... This is normal for someone entrapped into his own limiting views.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:27 pm

If, according to your theory "...there is no difference between suffering and Tathagata. Both are the same..." then that means you are enlightened right now.

If you are enlightened (congratulations on your enlightenment, by the way) that means that you are omniscient (since omniscience, we are told, is a quality of enlightenment).

So how many teeth do I have (just the real ones, not the false ones) oh enlightened one?

You can't answer, right?

So there goes your theory down the drain.

It's been a business doing pleasure with you! :hi:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:33 pm

Image
Certainly you are missing wisdom tooth...
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Simon E. » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:38 pm

Good luck with that Greg.. :thumbsup:
If things go as usual all that will happen is that oushi ( whose nic means 'bull' in Japanese..supply your own suffix :lol: ) will just construct yet another word game which implies, but never quite states, his Realisation. Woo-hoo. :smile:
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