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 Post subject: No coming or going
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:31 am 
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I suddenly realized something yesterday. Hopefully, people will find this illuminating.

I've heard many times that phenomena do not come or go. I didn't understand this. Yesterday I was thinking about what Ra Lotsawa and duckfiasco have said about thoughts. They are empty appearances that neither come nor go. Then in a flash of insight, I realized that thoughts appear because of causes (past events, mental objects, etc) and conditions (the mind itself) but if the thought existed it would have to be a continuum. But, a fresh thought arises from nowhere and fades to nowhere.

Then in a second flash I realized that physical phenomena are the same. They neither come nor go, but due to causes and conditions, appear and function.

This also ties into what Tsongkhapa said about Dependent Origination (causes and conditions) eliminating eternalism. If phenomena have causes and condition then they do not belong to a continuum, therefore they are merely appearances.

I'm struggling with my obscurations to maintain my understanding of this, so I'm going to write it down before the 'heat' fades.

_________________
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats


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 Post subject: Re: No coming or going
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:38 am 
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Posts: 260
It's good. Don't struggle. No arising is pure relaxation.


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 Post subject: Re: No coming or going
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:14 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:06 pm
Posts: 952
Heat fades.
Nothing arises.

:woohoo:
:twothumbsup:

Song and dance? Two thumbs up or down? Heat fades.
Nothing arises.

:meditate:

_________________
YinYana Buddhism


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 Post subject: Re: No coming or going
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:01 am 
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am
Posts: 2552
lobster wrote:
Heat fades.
Nothing arises.

:woohoo:
:twothumbsup:

Song and dance? Two thumbs up or down? Heat fades.
Nothing arises.

:meditate:

So why the big woo-hoo ?
Could it be that it is necessary to advertise the fact that 'nothing arises ' ?


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 Post subject: Re: No coming or going
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:05 am 
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Posts: 1596
Nothing is necessary, but through assurance doubt is loosened, which is always beneficial.
We cannot be sure about the actual result of such action, but we shouldn't question the intentions.
:woohoo:

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Say what you think about me here.


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 Post subject: Re: No coming or going
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:39 am 
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Posts: 2552
The questioning of intentions is all yours.


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 Post subject: Re: No coming or going
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:21 pm
Posts: 42
Konchog1 wrote:
I suddenly realized something yesterday. Hopefully, people will find this illuminating.

I've heard many times that phenomena do not come or go. I didn't understand this. Yesterday I was thinking about what Ra Lotsawa and duckfiasco have said about thoughts. They are empty appearances that neither come nor go. Then in a flash of insight, I realized that thoughts appear because of causes (past events, mental objects, etc) and conditions (the mind itself) but if the thought existed it would have to be a continuum. But, a fresh thought arises from nowhere and fades to nowhere.

Then in a second flash I realized that physical phenomena are the same. They neither come nor go, but due to causes and conditions, appear and function.

This also ties into what Tsongkhapa said about Dependent Origination (causes and conditions) eliminating eternalism. If phenomena have causes and condition then they do not belong to a continuum, therefore they are merely appearances.

I'm struggling with my obscurations to maintain my understanding of this, so I'm going to write it down before the 'heat' fades.


Glass is like slow water...over a long time it flows! Physical world appearances is like slow thoughts...over a long time they form and fade! Really no difference between the two? As usual-this is me guessing!


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 Post subject: Re: No coming or going
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:19 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:38 am
Posts: 556
How can any phenomena, physical or mental, arise without a cause?


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 Post subject: Re: No coming or going
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:22 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 am
Posts: 1355
dude wrote:
How can any phenomena, physical or mental, arise without a cause?
Because things have causes they lack inherent existence.

_________________
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats


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 Post subject: Re: No coming or going
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:41 am 
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Posts: 556
oh okay so we're talking about absolute existence (emptiness), not phenomena


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 Post subject: Re: No coming or going
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:58 am 
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Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am
Posts: 541
Konchog1 wrote:
I suddenly realized something yesterday. Hopefully, people will find this illuminating.

I've heard many times that phenomena do not come or go. I didn't understand this. Yesterday I was thinking about what Ra Lotsawa and duckfiasco have said about thoughts. They are empty appearances that neither come nor go. Then in a flash of insight, I realized that thoughts appear because of causes (past events, mental objects, etc) and conditions (the mind itself) but if the thought existed it would have to be a continuum. But, a fresh thought arises from nowhere and fades to nowhere.

Then in a second flash I realized that physical phenomena are the same. They neither come nor go, but due to causes and conditions, appear and function.

This also ties into what Tsongkhapa said about Dependent Origination (causes and conditions) eliminating eternalism. If phenomena have causes and condition then they do not belong to a continuum, therefore they are merely appearances.

I'm struggling with my obscurations to maintain my understanding of this, so I'm going to write it down before the 'heat' fades.


My 2 cents - stay with the "flash" - don't sweat the "understanding."

"Although Tsonkhapa argued in favour of Yogacara views early in his career[29] his later understanding is derived from Candrakirti,[30] who states that conventionally there are entities with distinguishing characteristics, but ultimately those qualities are not independent essences. But since this emptiness is true for everything that exists, this emptiness may also be regarded as an essence, though not in the sense of an independent essence. Candrakirti formulates a final negation by stating that even the denial of svabhava implies ...

...that either oneself or one's audience is not entirely free from the belief in svabhava. Therefore, ultimate truth, truth as it is for those who are free from misknowledge, cannot be expressed by asserting either the existence or nonexistence of svahbava"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka ... .B9.85gika

Sooooooooooooo - Try relaxing into the flash / heat and just gently guide your attention back to this when thoughts of it is, it is not, neither or both arise.


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 Post subject: Re: No coming or going
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:47 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:03 am
Posts: 933
Thoughts come and go and you can't control or predict what thoughts will come next.
Standing in the shower singing away, water splashing down, planning the day ahead also reliving dramas of the past.
Suddenly I pause, the mental chatter stops, warm water gushing down, nothing, no past, no future, just aware that I'm standing.
Small as it is, it's a rare thing for me to be in the moment, in the essence of the second, no time.


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 Post subject: Re: No coming or going
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:23 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 am
Posts: 1355
oldbob wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:
I suddenly realized something yesterday. Hopefully, people will find this illuminating.

I've heard many times that phenomena do not come or go. I didn't understand this. Yesterday I was thinking about what Ra Lotsawa and duckfiasco have said about thoughts. They are empty appearances that neither come nor go. Then in a flash of insight, I realized that thoughts appear because of causes (past events, mental objects, etc) and conditions (the mind itself) but if the thought existed it would have to be a continuum. But, a fresh thought arises from nowhere and fades to nowhere.

Then in a second flash I realized that physical phenomena are the same. They neither come nor go, but due to causes and conditions, appear and function.

This also ties into what Tsongkhapa said about Dependent Origination (causes and conditions) eliminating eternalism. If phenomena have causes and condition then they do not belong to a continuum, therefore they are merely appearances.

I'm struggling with my obscurations to maintain my understanding of this, so I'm going to write it down before the 'heat' fades.


My 2 cents - stay with the "flash" - don't sweat the "understanding."

"Although Tsonkhapa argued in favour of Yogacara views early in his career[29] his later understanding is derived from Candrakirti,[30] who states that conventionally there are entities with distinguishing characteristics, but ultimately those qualities are not independent essences. But since this emptiness is true for everything that exists, this emptiness may also be regarded as an essence, though not in the sense of an independent essence. Candrakirti formulates a final negation by stating that even the denial of svabhava implies ...

...that either oneself or one's audience is not entirely free from the belief in svabhava. Therefore, ultimate truth, truth as it is for those who are free from misknowledge, cannot be expressed by asserting either the existence or nonexistence of svahbava"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka ... .B9.85gika

Sooooooooooooo - Try relaxing into the flash / heat and just gently guide your attention back to this when thoughts of it is, it is not, neither or both arise.
Does staying in the flash mean one is an Arya?

_________________
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats


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 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: No coming or going
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:33 am 
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Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am
Posts: 541
Yes, I think it would be OK to consider yourself a spiritual hero if you stay in the flash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arya_%28Buddhism%29

But if you are in the flash (the moment) then there is no name arising.

Tricky - those Arya's :smile:


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 Post subject: Re: No coming or going
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:28 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:06 pm
Posts: 952
dude wrote:
How can any phenomena, physical or mental, arise without a cause?


They can not.
No way, no how.

Does the moon arise because it reflects in the well?
No.
Does the reflection exist without the peer review?
No?

Then there is nothing to see :woohoo:
. . . move along, Nothing to see . . . :rolling:

_________________
YinYana Buddhism


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 Post subject: Re: No coming or going
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:30 am 
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am
Posts: 2552
dude wrote:
How can any phenomena, physical or mental, arise without a cause?


It doesn't arise.


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 Post subject: Re: No coming or going
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:32 am 
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am
Posts: 2552
P.S...woo friggin' woo.


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