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Other conditions today??? - Dhamma Wheel

Other conditions today???

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Cittasanto
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Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sun May 27, 2012 1:32 am

Last edited by Cittasanto on Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:03 am, edited 8 times in total.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 27, 2012 1:51 am

Greetings Cittasanto,

There is still eye and forms.
There is still ear and sounds.
There is still body and touch.
There is still tongue and taste.
There is still nose and smell.
There is still mind and thought.

Whilst this remains true, the Buddha's Dhamma will be relevant, and any so-called "other conditions" can be subsumed into that truth of sense-bases and their objects (and their emptiness).

When anyone spins this "modern world" line, they're neglecting what world (loka) really meant in the Buddha's teaching.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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hanzze_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby hanzze_ » Sun May 27, 2012 2:57 am


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hanzze_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby hanzze_ » Sun May 27, 2012 3:00 am


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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sun May 27, 2012 3:21 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sun May 27, 2012 3:32 am

Hi Retro
I have a slightly different perspective, but certainly see and agree what you are saying.
so long as there is greed hatred and delusion nothing is different, different things for these to latch onto doesnt make them work differently.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 27, 2012 3:50 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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hanzze_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby hanzze_ » Sun May 27, 2012 3:59 am


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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sun May 27, 2012 4:37 am

So there are no other conditions?
the quoted text in the OP clearly claims there are, and others have made this sort of claim, so nothing but hollow claim?

so lets change the questions (which will be added to the OP in a moment)
how is this outside world more materialistic or worse for practice or what ever else, and how does that change things in regard to the teachings & practice?
how are we any different (in relation to the Buddhas teachings of what the problem is & its cause) to people back when the teachings took place? and why does this matter?
how & why is it more complicated/difficult to see today than then? how do we proliferate, ignore the obvious, fool ourselves any more than then?

all that springs to mind is there are those who will see with ease, those who will see with some difficulty, those who will see but ignore, and those who will not see at all (if I remember the four types of ability correctly) that Sahampati used to persuade the Buddha to teach. their really doesn't seam to be any difference on the level the Buddha was pointing at no profound level, just the open palm of a teacher.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 27, 2012 4:38 am

:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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hanzze_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby hanzze_ » Sun May 27, 2012 5:20 am


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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sun May 27, 2012 8:21 am

Hi Hanzee,
Can you answer the questions or not?


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby manas » Sun May 27, 2012 9:13 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby hanzze_ » Sun May 27, 2012 11:35 am


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hanzze_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby hanzze_ » Sun May 27, 2012 11:59 am


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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sun May 27, 2012 3:03 pm

Hi hanzze
you are making statements not backed up with any demonstratable examples of how things are different, I have said it one and I will say it again here, you are focused on one question when there are now ten to answer, it is very circular, and quite frankly statements dont show anything other than your own opinion on the matter.
I read your responce and the links I have also listened to the original talks of some of those papers several times, and they do not answer the questions as far as I can tell, if it does please show where each of the questions are answered in that response! The questions are quite direct and put in a way where each can be answered individually.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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hanzze_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby hanzze_ » Sun May 27, 2012 3:25 pm


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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sun May 27, 2012 8:54 pm

Hi Hanzee
these where qualified within the context of the line they were originally found in.
there has not been any demonstrable examples of difference from now & what would of been present in the time of the Buddha or before.

the questions are not relevant to me as there is a demonstrable effect of the teachings seen by myself and others which points to no differences not explainable from the teachings and confirmed by the practice (as already eluded to in reply to an earlier post to yours, which disqualified any levels or ability to understand as a qualified example as it shows different levels of ability to understand existed back then (look for Sahampati). to provide another example of this, there are gross & subtle manifestations of the root causes of greed, hatred & delusion, seen within the texts, so observed within the time of the Buddha, this is also seen by practitioners today, this is why for me there is no difference (as already explained). so as you are arguing for there being 1. different causes (of which you have admitted there are none) & 2. today is worse for practice due to some difference, as these would effect practice and the light the teachings should be viewed in, it is worth hearing what the problem is.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

befriend
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby befriend » Sun May 27, 2012 8:55 pm

im not sure what the mode of dress for women in india/nepal was but living in the US and watching television for 10 minutes and you are bombarded with breasts. and what is the cause of lust to arise? focusing on beauty. granted its my own will to look at the breasts but it make it a lot easier for me to practice renunciation if women covered up more. not that im at a point in my life where i want women to cover up, im not that spiritual. ha. im just making a statement that practicing now may be harder than practicing then what with all the lustful ads.
nothing can destroy a man who has lived a pure life

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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby jason c » Sun May 27, 2012 8:57 pm

dear cittasanto,
once someone has found the path the buddha has described, and developed the technique of practice the buddha has described. they become their own teacher their own master, and can progress on the path at a pace that suits them. i see the world we live in today, with the financial difficulties, the mistreatment of animals,and the amount of drugs humans are taking just to deal with the pain. i also see the confusion and fighting that is caused by organised religions (buddhism included), and i think why is it so difficult for people to find the truth? and then i look at myself and i see the confusion, the hurdles, the difficulties, the chances, and the pain i endured to find this path. it is not as visible as one may think. if it was there would be one teaching, one practice, not all these different sects. the teachings of the buddha are as relevant today as they were 2500yrs ago. so why aren't there more people practicing why is the world in such a chaotic state. buddhism doesnt have to evolve, people still find it, but isn't it a crime for it not to evolve, not to reach its arms out and all those who are suffering. what is the harm in updating old stories to reach a new generation? its selfish of us not to!
metta,
jason


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