dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.

Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby futerko » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:44 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:Also, sometimes Bönpo Dzogchen doesn't differentiate between the basis [gzhi] and all-basis [kun gzhi], they'll just refer to the basis as 'kun zhi', I've also attended a teaching by Keith Dowman, for example, and he didn't differentiate the bases either. So that's something to watch out for because it can make things potentially confusing. Bönpo masters like Lopon Tenzin Namdak will differentiate the basis and all-basis, and Nyingma Dzogchen does as well.


Funny, I was just this moment reading the exact same thing in the Donnatella Rossi book. You can never be too sure whether you're reading a precise translation/interpretation or not with certain texts, but thanks again, I think I've got it covered. :thumbsup:
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby baileyd123 » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:28 pm

Calea zacatechichi may interest you. I have never tried it myself but it was supposedly used by the Chontal natives of Mexico as a spiritual dream enhancer. I've read reports of exponentially enhanced vividness in dreams and easier lucidity, as well as astral projection. Always remember to use caution when using herbs such as this however. The negative effects are not well documented. Also, I think the Buddha taught against mind altering substances. I have had a lot of fun experimenting with subconscious exploration and I wish you the best of luck. Namaste.
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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby TaTa » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:12 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:So I got a dream yoga/phowa practice teaching and i'm all fired up. I've tried in the past with teachings from books, but didn't quite sustain anything.

Questions for those that do similar practices:

Is there some trick (that you can publicly disclose) to lucid states other than simply generating the desire to have them?

Is it pretty much necessary to keep a journal?

Have you found that pills or supplements for sleeping interfere? I have taken melatonin for years due to years of a graveyard job permanently knocking my rhythms out of whack.


Hi jhonny. Im not a pro lucid dreamer but when I try i have 2 or 3 per week and almost everyday in retreat. Although i did recive some teachings to do while lucid dreaming i would not call them dream yoga.

I would say that a dream journal is necessary, at least at first. I think that turning your mind towards dream is the most important thing, just remembering through the day about dreaming. Waking up , 2 o 3 times during night to record dreams increases your chances of getting one, if you really get this habit it will help a lot.
Having a 20 or 40 minute session of meditation before sleep is very helpful for me. Specially methods where you look at the mind itself, maybe resting the mind in its natural state will be helpfull, it seems to carry over through the night.
Motivation is the most important thing.
Learning about lucid dreaming will be very helpfull to complement dream yoga practice. I havent read Alan wallace's book, but i did heard his retreat recordings on lucid dreaming and dream yoga and where very helpful. I dont have the link with me but ill try to find it for you. And then of course is steven laberge clasic book on lucid dreaming.

Good luck! I find lucid dreaming really cool and helpful for my practice. See you
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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby ClearblueSky » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:12 pm

baileyd123 wrote:Calea zacatechichi may interest you. I have never tried it myself but it was supposedly used by the Chontal natives of Mexico as a spiritual dream enhancer. I've read reports of exponentially enhanced vividness in dreams and easier lucidity, as well as astral projection. Always remember to use caution when using herbs such as this however. The negative effects are not well documented. Also, I think the Buddha taught against mind altering substances. I have had a lot of fun experimenting with subconscious exploration and I wish you the best of luck. Namaste.

Just want to point out that this is a controlled substance in a lot of countries, and seems like it can have some pretty negative effects, at least from people's personal accounts on Erowid Encyclopedia.
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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:09 pm

Thanks for all the responses, so far I have had very little in the way of lucidity, but vividness of dreams is much greater, provided I must the motivation.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby montana » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:39 am

Over sleeping.
So sleep normally, then go back to sleep after you wake up. Keep sleeping more and more.
Personally I can sleep 22 hours a day now.
Wake up, take care of the body, back to work.
Try to remain conscious as your gross mind breaks up and coagulates into incoherent identities. :P
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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:38 am

I have a really hard time maintaining awareness, sometimes I barely get through the visualization before I fall asleep heh. Dreams are more vivid of course...

I haven't overslept since my kids were born, hell I don't think i've slept a full night since then.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby montana » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:40 am

Maintaining awareness is something you develop with practice and ingenuity.
Why ingenuity? Because the overcoming the 5 hindrances requires assessment and strategy.
When those 5 are overcome then you can focus on a single thing without the mind going off to some useless thing.

If there was a mad man in your bedroom all night muttering threats and scrapping a knife against your pillow you could maintain awareness. You have the ability to maintain awareness and worse than a mad man you have pernicious wrong views devouring you from the inside out, so maintain your awareness even when you sleep.

You will need more sleep doing these yogas often. And over time, the habit of waking periodically will be strongly habituated.

Maintaining awareness coupled with the wind can prevent dreams from forming, so you will have to experiment or use the specific instructions you were given.
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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:26 am

AS I draw near 40 I have to get up at least once per night to pee anyway, so, yay for practice opportunity.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby baileyd123 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:52 am

Galantamine or Choline or 5-HTP with Vitamin B-6 may help. My understanding is that somewhere along the line these chemicals aid in turning tryptophan into melatonin and serotonin which can greatly increase the vividness of one's dreams. For a more in-depth explanation check out http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/ ... ments.html
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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby asunthatneversets » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:36 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I have a really hard time maintaining awareness, sometimes I barely get through the visualization before I fall asleep heh. Dreams are more vivid of course...

Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche says that for building familiarization and clarity with the visualization, you can start with visualizing the thigle at your heart, and then add another stacked on top of the first, then another on top of that etc. So you end up building a chain of stacked thigles which extend up through your throat and head to the crown. Once you get to the crown of the head you can start to subtract the thigles one by one until you finish with the single thigle in the chest. He said this exercise will strengthen your ability to visualize, and the vividness of your clarity [cognizance] will also increase.

Also the body staying completely relaxed helps, and try not to move. You can scan your body piece by piece and totally relax that section as you go along. Tension in the jaw, tension in the throat, wherever there's tension make sure to totally relax.

And don't visualize too intensely, Norbu Rinpoche says the visualization is supposed to help you relax mostly. Keeps you from following discursive thought etc.
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