Where is Mount Sumeru?

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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby Zhen Li » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:21 am

Malcolm wrote:
Zhen Li wrote:This only lends further credence to the fact that our world taken as a whole is Jambudvipa.
.


The main thing which upsets this theory is that Ptolemy knew and mentions the Uttarakurus in his geography.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttarakuru

It is pretty clear Jambudvipa refers to India, before the Sarvastivadins got out of hand. They were competing with Jains and Hindus in the cosmology game.

Well that doesn't upset the "theory," because the theory is simply: what does the Sarvastivada Abhidharma say? The answer to that is not whether other uses of the terms contradict what the Sarvastivada Abhidharma says - that is wholly irrelevant to the question. The question as to what the historic source of these terms is, is also irrelevant to the question.

On a side note, I don't see how creating a cosmology which is highly cartoonish and unrealistic is in any way acting out of competition. They may simply be the natural evolution of ideas over hundreds of years, situated as they were within an increasingly vibrant and colourful society and religious community where, moreover, embellishment and adornment only serve to further one's accumulation of merit and further perfect the already perfected - making it more like itself.
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby Alfredo » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:22 am

In Jackson County, Missouri. Right next to the original location of Eden.

Okay, seriously, the notion of a mountain (or tree) marking the center of the world, the axis mundi, is obviously widespread. Equally obviously, there is no such mountain or tree, at least not as a matter of observable geography. The idea surely did not start with Kailash (but who knows where it did start)--rather, as archaic human populations migrated across Eurasia, they would have projected the idea onto the geography of wherever they were. And also stylized it half to death.
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby Lindama » Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:33 am

Lindama wrote:it's in your fingers


That would be the mudra.... for mandala ...and fingers which symbolize Mt Meru
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby Aemilius » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:15 pm

The Sarvastivada Abhidharma knew that when it is daytime in Jambudvipa it is night on the Kuru continent. They possessed knowledge that is still valid about the universe and the planet Earth.

Mount Kailash is not mentioned in the Abhidharmakosha, it is a later interpretation, and it is wrong for several reasons, for example: the Sun and the Moon do not revolve around Mount Kailash, but they do revolve around the South pole (or North pole), when you adopt a flat earth presentation of our planet.
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:08 pm

Aemilius wrote:The Sarvastivada Abhidharma knew that when it is daytime in Jambudvipa it is night on the Kuru continent. They possessed knowledge that is still valid about the universe and the planet Earth.

Mount Kailash is not mentioned in the Abhidharmakosha, it is a later interpretation, and it is wrong for several reasons, for example: the Sun and the Moon do not revolve around Mount Kailash, but they do revolve around the South pole (or North pole), when you adopt a flat earth presentation of our planet.


However the Surya Siddhanta's presentation of the universe (which has Meru at the north pole) wildly conflicts with Sarvastivadin cosmology.

Honestly, it is amazing to find people in the 21st century who try to prove that Abhidharmakosha's cosmology corresponds with the known facts of the universe.
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby Zhen Li » Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:56 pm

Aemilius wrote:The Sarvastivada Abhidharma knew that when it is daytime in Jambudvipa it is night on the Kuru continent. They possessed knowledge that is still valid about the universe and the planet Earth.

Mount Kailash is not mentioned in the Abhidharmakosha, it is a later interpretation, and it is wrong for several reasons, for example: the Sun and the Moon do not revolve around Mount Kailash, but they do revolve around the South pole (or North pole), when you adopt a flat earth presentation of our planet.

Sorry but I am just completely confused as to what possible motivation you could have in trying to prove that the Abhidharmakosha is corresponding to the real world.
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby smcj » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:36 am

Kalu R. addresses the Mr. Sumeru issue at around 29 minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxsZq1XT8YE

At 34 minutes he says that it is formulated that way so that when it is offered as a mandala it is the most esthetic way possible. Kalu R. was very conservative btw.
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby Aemilius » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Aemilius wrote:The Sarvastivada Abhidharma knew that when it is daytime in Jambudvipa it is night on the Kuru continent. They possessed knowledge that is still valid about the universe and the planet Earth.

Mount Kailash is not mentioned in the Abhidharmakosha, it is a later interpretation, and it is wrong for several reasons, for example: the Sun and the Moon do not revolve around Mount Kailash, but they do revolve around the South pole (or North pole), when you adopt a flat earth presentation of our planet.


However the Surya Siddhanta's presentation of the universe (which has Meru at the north pole) wildly conflicts with Sarvastivadin cosmology.

Honestly, it is amazing to find people in the 21st century who try to prove that Abhidharmakosha's cosmology corresponds with the known facts of the universe.


I am also honest, with all due respect. Just cease identifying Yourself solely as a person living inthe 21st century, try to imagine living in some other century, stretch your imagination. If You believe in reincarnation this should be quite easy and natural.

The hundred different explanations of world, that the shamans and other respect people of the past have told, must have then corresponded to the known facts, in the experience of those earlier peoples. We are just blinded, to some extent, by our present civilisation, by our present knowledge.

I have read enough astronomy during my life, and based on the geometry of modern astronomy the Mount Meru world view is logical and possible alternative. You can ask some astronomers what they think of it?
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby oldbob » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:39 pm

smcj wrote:Kalu R. addresses the Mr. Sumeru issue at around 29 minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxsZq1XT8YE

At 34 minutes he says that it is formulated that way so that when it is offered as a mandala it is the most esthetic way possible. Kalu R. was very conservative btw.


Works for me. Perhaps it is a symbolic representation of the biggest and the best so that when you make a mandala offering, YOU get the relative merit that accrues with such offerings. :smile: If you make your offering as big as the universe, YOU earn relative merits like that. When the offering / relative merits shift beyond any size (or limit) then - perhaps the relative merits become absolute merits, beyond any capacity of description - what-so-ever. :buddha1:
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby ClearblueSky » Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:02 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Aemilius wrote:The Sarvastivada Abhidharma knew that when it is daytime in Jambudvipa it is night on the Kuru continent. They possessed knowledge that is still valid about the universe and the planet Earth.

Mount Kailash is not mentioned in the Abhidharmakosha, it is a later interpretation, and it is wrong for several reasons, for example: the Sun and the Moon do not revolve around Mount Kailash, but they do revolve around the South pole (or North pole), when you adopt a flat earth presentation of our planet.


However the Surya Siddhanta's presentation of the universe (which has Meru at the north pole) wildly conflicts with Sarvastivadin cosmology.

Honestly, it is amazing to find people in the 21st century who try to prove that Abhidharmakosha's cosmology corresponds with the known facts of the universe.


I am also honest, with all due respect. Just cease identifying Yourself solely as a person living inthe 21st century, try to imagine living in some other century, stretch your imagination. If You believe in reincarnation this should be quite easy and natural.

The hundred different explanations of world, that the shamans and other respect people of the past have told, must have then corresponded to the known facts, in the experience of those earlier peoples. We are just blinded, to some extent, by our present civilisation, by our present knowledge.

I have read enough astronomy during my life, and based on the geometry of modern astronomy the Mount Meru world view is logical and possible alternative. You can ask some astronomers what they think of it?


I won't claim to be an astronomy expert, but from what I know I don't see how exactly that's a logical alternative. I'd be curious to hear how you see that fitting in some more detail.
When talking in philosophical/metaphorical terms I think it's fine to imagine living in some other century so the teaching fits properly with your practice. But talking in literal terms, about the actual earth and universe's layout I don't think it's so good to imagine living in another century so that you can believe an old teaching. If we do that we can also imagine germs don't exist, and the best way to cure sickness is drilling holes in people's skulls. The view of mount sumeru may very well come from a spiritual insight that is valuable, but it shouldn't override our view in the scientific sense, the same for people who are convinced the earth is 6,000 years old because the bible says so.
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby Aemilius » Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:59 pm

ClearblueSky wrote:
I won't claim to be an astronomy expert, but from what I know I don't see how exactly that's a logical alternative. I'd be curious to hear how you see that fitting in some more detail.


There are certain branches of geometry that you'd have to become familiar with: map projection is a systematic transformation of the locations on the surface of sphere into locations on a plane. All of the normal maps of planet Earth are such projections. There are many different mathematical systems for making geometrical map projections. This means that all of our normal maps are in fact flat, they are representations of a spherical planet Earth in a plane, i.e. as a flat surface.
Now we just need to make a map projection where in the centre we have Antarctica and around it are logically all of the continents of our planet. This is mathematically feasible, and thus we get a map where around the edge there are, almost in an unbroken circle: North America, Greenland, Scandinavia, North Russia/Siberia and Alaska. This map is naturally contorted, but it is as true as other such projected maps are.
Equator is a circle around Antartica, and as we know Sun is always above equator.

The other branch of geometry is astronomical or planetary geometry, which is somewhat more lengthy topic, but the knowledge about sun and equator should be convincing for our purposes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map_projection
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:58 pm

Indrajala wrote:So where is Mount Sumeru? Was it an ancient theory that we can rightfully dismiss? Or is it perhaps a kind of provisional map for both the physical and celestial realms?


I'm somewhat late to this discussion, for please forgive me if I repeat something that someone has said in the previous pages as I admittedly haven't read the whole discussion.

Mount Meru exists for those who have the karma to experience it. I have no doubt there are beings, such as those in the god realms who do have the karma to see it. As far as the beings of this world are concerned, Mount Meru does not exist because it doesn't appear to our minds. Because the world as we experience it depends upon our karma or actions, how we see the world depends upon the state of our mind. We cannot see the hungry ghost and hell realms because we don't have the karma in the human realms to experience them unless we have clairvoyance, but that doesn't mean that those realms do not exist just because they don't appear to us. Mount Meru definitely exists for those who have the karma to experience it with their valid cognizers. One day it may appear to our minds.
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby Aemilius » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:40 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Indrajala wrote:So where is Mount Sumeru? Was it an ancient theory that we can rightfully dismiss? Or is it perhaps a kind of provisional map for both the physical and celestial realms?


I'm somewhat late to this discussion, for please forgive me if I repeat something that someone has said in the previous pages as I admittedly haven't read the whole discussion.

Mount Meru exists for those who have the karma to experience it. I have no doubt there are beings, such as those in the god realms who do have the karma to see it. As far as the beings of this world are concerned, Mount Meru does not exist because it doesn't appear to our minds. Because the world as we experience it depends upon our karma or actions, how we see the world depends upon the state of our mind. We cannot see the hungry ghost and hell realms because we don't have the karma in the human realms to experience them unless we have clairvoyance, but that doesn't mean that those realms do not exist just because they don't appear to us. Mount Meru definitely exists for those who have the karma to experience it with their valid cognizers. One day it may appear to our minds.


You can quicken it: You can start studying astronomy and the necessary branches of geometry, a few years or even only a few months of intense study will increase your abilities of perception radically.
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:44 pm

Aemilius wrote:
You can quicken it: You can start studying astronomy and the necessary branches of geometry, a few years or even only a few months of intense study will increase your abilities of perception radically.


I'm not quite sure what you mean. I have a degree in astronomy and that hasn't enabled me to change my karma so that I can see Mount Meru. It doesn't exist outside the mind anyway.
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby catmoon » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:58 pm

Aemilius wrote:All movement is relative, i.e. all movement occurs in relation to other bodies (moving or stationary). There is no error in conceiving earth as stationary and sun as moving. It is a matter of perspective. Nevertheless, you have to be more accurate in geometry and physics. The ancient descriptions say that sun and moon move around Mount Sumeru.
A perceiver on earth will see that sun moves above equator and that sun thus makes a perfect circle around the South pole or the North pole. As a conclusion the only correct place for Sumeru is either the South Pole or the North Pole. For several reasons it seems logical that the South pole is the actual place of Mt Sumeru. I think the Mount Sumeru world map is hugely old, indians have inherited it from an earlier civilisation. It must be more than 200 000 years old, or come from that period in earth's history.
Experientally humans still perceive sun as moving and earth as stationary, it is very difficult to experience earth as moving and sun as stationary.


Good post except for one minor detail. The sun does not move above the equator. It does cross the equator twice a year but it's only in the right spot to fit this theory for a moment and the direction of motion is kind of wrong even then. For details Google "ecliptic".
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby Aemilius » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:41 am

catmoon wrote:
Aemilius wrote:All movement is relative, i.e. all movement occurs in relation to other bodies (moving or stationary). There is no error in conceiving earth as stationary and sun as moving. It is a matter of perspective. Nevertheless, you have to be more accurate in geometry and physics. The ancient descriptions say that sun and moon move around Mount Sumeru.
A perceiver on earth will see that sun moves above equator and that sun thus makes a perfect circle around the South pole or the North pole. As a conclusion the only correct place for Sumeru is either the South Pole or the North Pole. For several reasons it seems logical that the South pole is the actual place of Mt Sumeru. I think the Mount Sumeru world map is hugely old, indians have inherited it from an earlier civilisation. It must be more than 200 000 years old, or come from that period in earth's history.
Experientally humans still perceive sun as moving and earth as stationary, it is very difficult to experience earth as moving and sun as stationary.


Good post except for one minor detail. The sun does not move above the equator. It does cross the equator twice a year but it's only in the right spot to fit this theory for a moment and the direction of motion is kind of wrong even then. For details Google "ecliptic".


Ecliptic is the sun's annual apparent path. But here I am referring to sun's apparent path during one 24 hour period, i.e. to the fact that when you are in the Northern hemisphere the sun at midday is in the South, and when you are in the Southern hemisphere the sun at midday is in the North. If you are in Athens at 12:00, you see the same sun as do the people in Johannesburg, but in Johannesburg they see it in the Northern direction.
Equator is the point in sun's 24 hour path, where it is right above you. This is how it is defined in classical geography. The point where sun is above you makes a circle around the globe during one 24 hour period, (or if you follow this point in imagination for 24 hours). If you now transfer this circle of equator into a flat earth cartogaphical presentation of Earth, it makes a circle around the Antartica or Southpole (or alternatively the Northpole, if you like). In this way sun's apparent path circles Mount Sumeru, which is here thought to be the Southpole or the axis that goes through Antarctica.
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby zamotcr » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:04 pm

Well, Sumeru can't be taken literally. Seriously, it just does not make sense. When I read people trying to validate that Sumeru is real, I felt like when I was christian and heard the creationist people.

The idea behind Sumeru is very old and is shared among all Indo-European religions. Norse and Celts have a World Tree, Hellenist and Vedics have a mountain. They both do the same, the tree or the mountain, they are an axis mundi, all the worlds are connected or "sustained" by the mountain or the tree.

Sorry for the literalistic guys, but in modern world, with modern science, there is no space for such tree or mountain, we would have found it many years ago, it would be pretty obvious.

For me the meaning of Sumeru is a symbolical one. Physically it's impossible and for me, does not exists. But symbolical they meaning is much great, for me, it say that every world is interconnected.

We have to look more deeply, not just the text. Sumeru is just a myth :) Also the world is not flat.
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:58 pm

zamotcr wrote:Well, Sumeru can't be taken literally. Seriously, it just does not make sense. When I read people trying to validate that Sumeru is real, I felt like when I was christian and heard the creationist people.
..... Also the world is not flat.


Sure Sumeru can be taken literally for those who have the karma to experience it. If you dream of mount Sumeru, from the point of view of your experience, it exists. Emptiness means that things do not exist from their own side in the least which means that 'reality' depends on your mind. There are beings for whom Sumeru is very literal and the world is flat. For each person, there is an appearance of a world and that appearance depends on their karma, so of course such things exist. The planet earth exists as a round globe for us because that's our shared karma, but it can be quite different for other beings.
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:11 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote: Emptiness means that things do not exist from their own side in the least which means that 'reality' depends on your mind.


But your mind too does not exist from its own side...so what does it depend on?
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Re: Where is Mount Sumeru?

Postby zamotcr » Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:44 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:Sure Sumeru can be taken literally for those who have the karma to experience it. If you dream of mount Sumeru, from the point of view of your experience, it exists. Emptiness means that things do not exist from their own side in the least which means that 'reality' depends on your mind. There are beings for whom Sumeru is very literal and the world is flat. For each person, there is an appearance of a world and that appearance depends on their karma, so of course such things exist. The planet earth exists as a round globe for us because that's our shared karma, but it can be quite different for other beings.


Sure, also Unicorns can be taken literally for those who have the karma to experience it. I don't understand why people always try to defend things that are clearly obvious not physical nor literal.

And for those people who believe the Earth is flat, well, going back to school would be the first step. The Earth is not flat and there are proof of it.

I got your idea of karma, and each see things different, but that also does not change the way things are.
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