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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:53 am 
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maybe it will at least keep the cannibals distracted for long enough that they eat a few less brother sentient beings.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:51 am 
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Chogyal Namkhai Norbu said that it doesnt really matter since when you example grow potato or rice, you automatically kill hundreds if not thousands of small sentient beings.

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If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:15 pm 
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KonchokZoepa wrote:
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu said that it doesnt really matter since when you example grow potato or rice, you automatically kill hundreds if not thousands of small sentient beings.


he also constantly says how karma begins with intent, and always gives as an example accidentally stepping on an insect without even realizing it, and feeling sorry afterwards. Intent to kill? 0

killing an animal deliberately in order to eat it (or letting the butcher do it for you)? Intent to kill? +1

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:36 pm 
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no actually i dont have an intent to kill even if i eat meat. none whatsoever and i would never kill an animal to eat it.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:51 pm 
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KonchokZoepa wrote:
no actually i dont have an intent to kill even if i eat meat. none whatsoever and i would never kill an animal to eat it.


unless you are dumpster diving you are paying someone else to kill, which amounts to the same thing.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:09 pm 
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not exactly like that, and they would kill even if i wouldnt buy. it happens unrelated to me. i acknowledge that i am not helping in stopping to kill animals for meat and with my actions i am actually supporting it. but one person in so many doesnt make a difference.

and not having intent to kill even though you eat meat and having the intent to kill and meating eat are different even though i buy meat, if i buy meat it doesn't = intent to kill.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:15 pm 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
maybe it will at least keep the cannibals distracted for long enough that they eat a few less brother sentient beings.


Life feeds on life, intentionally or not.

M

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:17 pm 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu said that it doesnt really matter since when you example grow potato or rice, you automatically kill hundreds if not thousands of small sentient beings.


he also constantly says how karma begins with intent, and always gives as an example accidentally stepping on an insect without even realizing it, and feeling sorry afterwards. Intent to kill? 0

killing an animal deliberately in order to eat it (or letting the butcher do it for you)? Intent to kill? +1


and your logic goes wrong here that letting the butcher do it for you. the buyer probly in most cases dont even think about killing an animal, let alone to actually have an intent to kill it.

and the killing happens, we cant change it.

and it happens in growing vegetarian food, example the stuff that you buy from stores there are pesticides in those plants and fruits and potatoes and carrots and whatnot, and they use pesticide with the intent to kill the insects that could do harm to the crop. with the intent to eradicate those little bastards who do harm to our crop. and vegetarians buy that, but vegetarians dont have the intent to kill when they buy that.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:44 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
maybe it will at least keep the cannibals distracted for long enough that they eat a few less brother sentient beings.


Life feeds on life, intentionally or not.

M


so you're claiming that intent is irrelevant when it comes to karma?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:49 pm 
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Following some of this logic, then Shakyamuni Buddha would be equally guilty by begging food which had been killed by someone else, that is a rough moral equivalent to the modern buying of meat at a supermarket.

Also has been mentioned a bunch, vegan and vegetarian diets are more viable for those in the first world, who already live off the ill-gotten fruits of a big chunk of the rest of the world, so if you're looking for things we contribute to indirectly to be morally outraged at, IMO meat eating is just a drop in the bucket.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:02 pm 
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A good test of a formulation (see Immanuel Kant's first law) is to test if it were universal and applied to everyone. What if everyone were Buddhist? Who would man the slaughter-houses? So at least in my opinion, a vegetarian diet is at least an ideal form since no one would be able to eat meat if everyone were Buddhist.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:15 pm 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
maybe it will at least keep the cannibals distracted for long enough that they eat a few less brother sentient beings.


Life feeds on life, intentionally or not.

M


so you're claiming that intent is irrelevant when it comes to karma?


No, I am observing that all living beings feed on other living beings. I will add that the distinction between sentient and non-sentient life is artificial and anachronistic.

M

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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:18 pm 
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David N. Snyder wrote:
What if everyone were Buddhist? Who would man the slaughter-houses?


We have already performed this experiment in Tibet, Thailand, etc. The answer is that Buddhists would man the abattoirs and come up with rites of karmic expiation.

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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:22 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:

so you're claiming that intent is irrelevant when it comes to karma?


No, I am observing that all living beings feed on other living beings. I will add that the distinction between sentient and non-sentient life is artificial and anachronistic.

M


thats a non-sequitur as a response to the question of intent and karma.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:23 pm 
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KonchokZoepa wrote:
no actually i dont have an intent to kill even if i eat meat. none whatsoever and i would never kill an animal to eat it.

Don't bother, vegetarians lose all reason about this.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:29 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:
What if everyone were Buddhist? Who would man the slaughter-houses?


We have already performed this experiment in Tibet, Thailand, etc. The answer is that Buddhists would man the abattoirs and come up with rites of karmic expiation.


If you justify everything with doing whatever you want knowing you will just ask for forgiveness, be forgiven or receive karmic expiation, what is that to stop anything from murder of a human to anything?

So what if everyone were Buddhist and really practiced the First Precept?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:30 pm 
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Pero wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:
no actually i dont have an intent to kill even if i eat meat. none whatsoever and i would never kill an animal to eat it.

Don't bother, vegetarians lose all reason about this.


no wonder this thread is 125 pages long :rolling:

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:31 pm 
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Pero wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:
no actually i dont have an intent to kill even if i eat meat. none whatsoever and i would never kill an animal to eat it.

Don't bother, vegetarians lose all reason about this.


all classical expositions of karma include the case of ordering someone else to kill for you for the very reason that people of low intelligence will actually think that it excuses them from culpability.

if you actually think that saying "i would never kill an animal to eat it but Im OK with paying someone else to kill it so I can eat it" makes sense, then I really don't know what else to say to you.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:32 pm 
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David N. Snyder wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:
What if everyone were Buddhist? Who would man the slaughter-houses?


We have already performed this experiment in Tibet, Thailand, etc. The answer is that Buddhists would man the abattoirs and come up with rites of karmic expiation.


If you justify everything with doing whatever you want knowing you will just ask for forgiveness, be forgiven or receive karmic expiation, what is that to stop anything from murder of a human to anything?

So what if everyone were Buddhist and really practiced the First Precept?



we would probly stop eating and either achieve liberation and in both cases go extinct since killing happens even when growing vegetables.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:33 pm 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
Pero wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:
no actually i dont have an intent to kill even if i eat meat. none whatsoever and i would never kill an animal to eat it.

Don't bother, vegetarians lose all reason about this.


all classical expositions of karma include the case of ordering someone else to kill for you for the very reason that people of low intelligence will actually think that it excuses them from culpability.

if you actually think that saying "i would never kill an animal to eat it but Im OK with paying someone else to kill it so I can eat it" makes sense, then I really don't know what else to say to you.


if you look at it clearly, the big corporations order the animals to be killed to make money out of it and give people meet.

no regular customer is actually ordering animals to be killed. that is done by corporations.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


Top
 Profile  
 
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