Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby invisiblediamond » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:15 pm

M.G. wrote:"All paths are included in Dzogchen. There is tsa-lung for example."

In principle, sure, but various systems emphasize and have developed certain paths in different and greater or lesser ways than others.


Well Sarma paths don't have path of self liberation so much as Nyingma. Gelugs deny path of self liberation. But Nyingma has everything to a complete degree. One can make tummo one's main practice.
invisiblediamond
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:21 pm

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby M.G. » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:27 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
M.G. wrote:"All paths are included in Dzogchen. There is tsa-lung for example."

In principle, sure, but various systems emphasize and have developed certain paths in different and greater or lesser ways than others.


Well Sarma paths don't have path of self liberation so much as Nyingma. Gelugs deny path of self liberation. But Nyingma has everything to a complete degree. One can make tummo one's main practice.


I was thinking more about Buddhist vs non-Buddhist lineages.
M.G.
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby invisiblediamond » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:43 pm

M.G. wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
M.G. wrote:"All paths are included in Dzogchen. There is tsa-lung for example."

In principle, sure, but various systems emphasize and have developed certain paths in different and greater or lesser ways than others.


Well Sarma paths don't have path of self liberation so much as Nyingma. Gelugs deny path of self liberation. But Nyingma has everything to a complete degree. One can make tummo one's main practice.


I was thinking more about Buddhist vs non-Buddhist lineages.

Buddhist take subtle body methods much farther. The two don't compare. I hope you get a chance to experience it.
invisiblediamond
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:21 pm

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby M.G. » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:51 pm

"Buddhist take subtle body methods much farther. The two don't compare. I hope you get a chance to experience it."

I've studied both and reached different conclusions. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.
M.G.
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby MalaBeads » Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:28 pm

M.G. wrote: I'd say that recognizing the state of natural awareness would benefit everyone, but I wouldn't say that Dzogchen is the best path for everyone.


I would tend to agree. What you call the natural state is irrelevant.

Specific dzogchen practices may not be for everyone, and certainly being a member of the Dzogchen Community is not a prerequisite for anything. My use of terminology includes saying things like "dzogchen is your natural state" and to parrot my teacher i would say "dzogchen is not a tradition", etc.

I am reluctant to say much more however for fear of getting into a terminology tussle. Such things are useless, imo.

:shrug:
MalaBeads
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:47 am

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby muni » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:14 pm

Snowid wrote:
This is Huge Limitation.


Hello Snowid,

Even many books and texts are free to read, the meaning remains hidden for us, if all is consumed literary by the conceptual mind. Our conceptual mind is actually the limitation.

An Awaken One, has skills to use methods for us, to reveal the Nature of Mind which has no limitations. Therefore there are the Masters in Dzogchen. :namaste:
Last edited by muni on Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
muni
 
Posts: 2737
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby Snovid » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:15 pm

How secret is the teaching at this point?

I cant tell You
because its secret.
I am from Poland I use google translator I do not know English
User avatar
Snovid
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:10 pm

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby M.G. » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:52 pm

I don't have a definitive answer but I think there's legitimate room to question whether secrecy is needed regarding the dharma in today's world. Lots of the secrets are already available anyway, and honestly, I think in a multireligious society where Buddhists are a small minority most people are basically indifferent to a lot of the material.
M.G.
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby gad rgyangs » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:13 pm

I don't think anything related to view is embargoed as secret, but ChNNR was just explaining why thogal and yangti teachings (which are practices) need to be secret: without a firm foundation of thekcho, one will fall into dualism vision if one does thogal and it will be finished for this lifetime in terms of possibility of realization. so, these should not be taught openly without the student first being appraised by the teacher as to their level of understanding. it is to protect the student, not a control thing.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
User avatar
gad rgyangs
 
Posts: 737
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:53 pm

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby M.G. » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:29 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:I don't think anything related to view is embargoed as secret, but ChNNR was just explaining why thogal and yangti teachings (which are practices) need to be secret: without a firm foundation of thekcho, one will fall into dualism vision if one does thogal and it will be finished for this lifetime in terms of possibility of realization. so, these should not be taught openly without the student first being appraised by the teacher as to their level of understanding. it is to protect the student, not a control thing.


I understand the argument, but certainly in today's world, lots of what I would consider much more dangerous knowledge is easily accessible. Togal instructions are already publically available in English; its not totally irrational to say that perhaps a different understanding of how spiritual practices should be conveyed is appropriate.

That said, I'm not a Dzogchenpo, so I don't want to go around telling practitioners how Dzogchen should be taught.
M.G.
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:54 am

The only real secrets left are tantric. The highest secrets are open. It's weird.
invisiblediamond
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:21 pm

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:20 am

invisiblediamond wrote:Well Sarma paths don't have path of self liberation so much as Nyingma.
Mahamudra?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 7963
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby wisdom » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:29 am

Because Rigpa is beyond cause and effect.
User avatar
wisdom
 
Posts: 473
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:33 am

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby smcj » Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:06 am

wisdom wrote:Because Rigpa is beyond cause and effect.

a.k.a "transcendent".
smcj
 
Posts: 1481
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby smcj » Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:32 am

Well Sarma paths don't have path of self liberation so much as Nyingma.

Here in the West Dzogchen has been much more widely and successfully marketed than Mahamudra has.

Gelugs deny path of self liberation.

Gelugpas tend to be very secretive about secretive practices, so I'm not sure that's so.
smcj
 
Posts: 1481
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby futerko » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:04 am

smcj wrote:
wisdom wrote:Because Rigpa is beyond cause and effect.

a.k.a "transcendent".


I disagree on this point, but the open dharma forum is probably not the place for such a technical debate.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
User avatar
futerko
 
Posts: 993
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:58 am

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby Simon E. » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:47 am

Snowid wrote:I would like to share with you my own thoughts/discover about Dzogchen.
Lot has been said about the fact that in Dzogchen
the most important is get rid of own limitations,right?
If so
what for all these secrets and prohibitions talk?
Do not talk to anyone,even with other students of Dzogchen
If you ask someone for something, you break samaya and then
you lose ability to achieve realization in this life.

This is Huge Limitation.

With respect, the fact that you perceive it as a huge limitation does not mean that you have been misinformed.
Sometimes its 'ready... fire ! ...aim '

:namaste:
Simon E.
 
Posts: 2145
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby M.G. » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:17 pm

wisdom wrote:Because Rigpa is beyond cause and effect.


Sure, but practitioners develop the facility to rest in natural awareness through practice.

Its probably correct to say that in some sense Dzogchen is causal and in some sense not.
M.G.
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby M.G. » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:28 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:The only real secrets left are tantric. The highest secrets are open. It's weird.


I think there's a stronger argument for keeping tantric practices secret, but at this point in time I'm not sure secrecy is merited there, either. Realistically, what would happen if it all opened up? We've already got hordes of charlatans and "tantric" frauds anyway. Maybe if it was all out in the open there would be more honesty and better understanding of the teachings. Just a thought.
M.G.
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am

Re: Why is Dzogchen the Path beyond Cause and Effect?

Postby smcj » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:41 pm

futerko wrote:
smcj wrote:
wisdom wrote:Because Rigpa is beyond cause and effect.

a.k.a "transcendent".

I disagree on this point, but the open dharma forum is probably not the place for such a technical debate.

It's just semantics.
transcend, tr.v.:
1a. to rise above or go beyond the limits of
1b. to triumph over the negative or restrictive aspects of: overcome
1c. to be prior to, beyond, and above (the universe or material existence)

I was using the term in the sense of 1c., which I think is accurate. We are saying Rigpa is "beyond cause and effect", which is what the material universe consists of. However the connotation usually associated with "transcendent" is misleading in this context, which is that it is inaccessible or unattainable. Rigpa is accessible and attainable--or at least so I'm told!

Come to think of it, definitions 1a. and 1b. seem like they could be used too, but in a more poetic and literary way.
smcj
 
Posts: 1481
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alfredo, MSNbot Media, odysseus, smcj and 16 guests

>