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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:15 am 
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This thread is about appropriate practices for laypeople, right?

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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:33 am 
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That was my intention yeah, since appropriate sexual practices for monks is kind of a non-starter right, lol.

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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:23 am 
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'Mock Turtles' life "You can really have no notion how delightful it will be...will you won't you will you won't you join the dance?"

When ripe sex is not hard to give up but if you're thinking and craving it constantly, why pretend you might as well do it!
You know the old saying ...as you are so is the world.


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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:50 am 
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Sooo,.. Let's just drag down Buddhism to our level is the theme of this thread right?

Being doctrinal is a bad thing for a Buddhist right?
Last time I checked the Buddha's teachings were well regarded among Buddhists. But I guess that only applies when they don't tell us there is something better than the crude pleasures we're already familiar with.

And the prospect of going beyond all needs and all deprivation is just symbolic.
The Buddha blah blah blah blah, but no one ever actually ceases to be dependent on sensuality and trying is some medieval self torturous alchemy that makes you twisted. Right?
And suggesting he was speaking literally. That's so doctrinal.

I'm so sorry for my little faux pas. I formally take refuge in pop psychology trends from now on.

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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:29 am 
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Quote:
Being doctrinal is a bad thing for a Buddhist right?
Last time I checked the Buddha's teachings were well regarded among Buddhists. But I guess that only applies when they don't tell us there is something better than the crude pleasures we're already familiar with.


Alright, this gonna sound bitchy but i'm continually amazed by how hard it is to have a non-shrill, non-crazy discussion about sex on DW, so here goes:

We all know sex is a huge source of attachment, you're not telling anyone anything new. Arguments for celibacy are all over DW, i'm really familiar with them, and I don't require a lecture on them from you, but thanks.

The thread is about healthy sex lives though, and what that constitutes such for a Buddhist layman/laywoman, for instance, those in monogamous relationships, married folks, young people dating, whatever. According to your all-or-nothing view, these people cannot be Buddhists because they have sex. last I checked the 3rd precept wasn't "Don't ever have sex or you can't be a real Buddhist". If you think my attitude re:sex makes me less of one, that's fine, but please keep it to yourself.


Quote:
And suggesting he was speaking literally. That's so doctrinal.


Don't project your nonsense onto me, i'm not some pop psychology guy. In terms of taking words literally, simply following the 3rd precept is pretty easy, I have actually done that my whole sex life, prior to even being a Buddhist. So obviously, what i'm asking goes beyond just "the basics" of literal interpretation, since to follow Buddhas historical suggestions for layfolks on the subject actually is not too taxing.

Anyway...to move the conversation on, and maybe get past some of the grandstanding..let me ask:

Within the realm of talking about what's appropriate, what level of "deviance" from the norm is acceptable, someone mentioned s&m as being unhealthy, and I agree..but so much of this is a question of degree, i'm wondering if people have any hard and fast rules about this sort of thing. I know that some Tibetan texts mention "right hole" "right time" etc...but then again, i read about drombos and it makes me realize that maybe it's best not to just rely on Tibetan texts lol.

So anyway, i don't wanna get inappropriate, i'm just curious about the point where sexual appetites get "worse", from a Buddhist perspective.

I'll also be frank here, i'm interested in this question particular from the viewpoints of people (maybe with a few years under their belts) who have had normal, or abnormal sex lives, and how they view this stuff as regards their Buddhist practice. if you are a "well sex just isn't for me" or an "I don't need sex due to Dharma practice" person that's great, in many ways I really envy your level of accomplishment. However, you probably aren't an expert on healthy sex lives, if you've not had one.

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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:40 am 
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In my opinion, for a non-celibate practitioner, the things to avoid are cheating while in a monogamous relationship (or purposely cheating with someone who is), or using sexuality in a way you know harms. That means the obvious like don't rape, don't have sex with kids and animals, but also being mindful of how your actions might effect someone. For example, if someone is really emotionally unstable, and you think your sex with them is harmful in some way, I think you should refrain even if they are consenting and asking. We vow to avoid harm to others.
Other than that, I don't see why there should be more restrictions. It's an interesting topic, because even though we like to think of ourselves as liberal and open with sex, I think we Buddhists can be pretty puritanical. It's almost like we half-accept it, secretly thinking it's dirty and almost wanting it to be a separate part of our lives than our practice. I don't see why masturbation, sex in any hole, or even the gimp suit the other comment mentioned would be a problem. Sex is a very strong attachment, but you're either making the choice to refrain from it, or have it be part of your life as a practitioner. Might as well enjoy it guilt-free, while being mindful to do as little harm as possible with it if that's your path.


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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:03 am 
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:good:


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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:56 am 
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Look ,just for laughs right, have you ever thought of posting the topic on Dhamma Wheel ? :smile:
As far as I can make out they would Beatify Wayne Bobbitt.


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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:21 pm 
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disjointed wrote:
Sooo,.. Let's just drag down Buddhism to our level is the theme of this thread right?

Being doctrinal is a bad thing for a Buddhist right?
Last time I checked the Buddha's teachings were well regarded among Buddhists. But I guess that only applies when they don't tell us there is something better than the crude pleasures we're already familiar with.

And the prospect of going beyond all needs and all deprivation is just symbolic.
The Buddha blah blah blah blah, but no one ever actually ceases to be dependent on sensuality and trying is some medieval self torturous alchemy that makes you twisted. Right?
And suggesting he was speaking literally. That's so doctrinal.

I'm so sorry for my little faux pas. I formally take refuge in pop psychology trends from now on.



you probly have not heard of ngakpas. i.e Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche was a ngakpa. a lay tantric yogi with ngakpa robes, and he has many children and they are all tulkus.

there are many other of these examples. ngakpa means you hold vow's but are allowed to maintain a householder life, allthough you are still ordained.

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If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:31 pm 
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Well that depends on what you mean by 'ordained'.


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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:57 pm 
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Simon E. wrote:
Well that depends on what you mean by 'ordained'.


Here's the crux of the matter, at least part of it. There are persons who are non-celibate who are invested with some kind of teaching authority by different kinds of institutions or traditions (some of them quite new, such as the institutional role of the lay meditation teacher pace U Ba Khin or Goenka). These include the ngakpa system of the Himalayas and the post-Meiji era deployment of the Bodhisattva ordination in Japan (which itself has a long and interesting history... see wiki link below). So, you have persons who are considered by their communities to be ordained, and function as ordained, but who are not ordained by the Vinaya: they are not monks or nuns, they typically have families.

But as the OP states, this isn't about ordained persons. This thread is about sexuality in the context of lay Buddhist practice. Which is to say, this discussion is about facing the facts of life in contemporary families.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmajala ... ahayana%29

I'd like to know if this person whose role does not require celibacy is "bringing Buddhism down."



Or this person, whose practice did not require celibacy. Bringing Buddhism down?


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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:11 pm 
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Jikan wrote:
This thread is about appropriate practices for laypeople, right?


:namaste:

Many excellent posts in this thread. :good: :good: :good: :twothumbsup:

My 2 cents.

viewtopic.php?f=111&t=13461&start=80#p178278

So maybe it knocks down to what is appropriate, for each person (could be a vow holder, married or not, or a lineage holding Dzogchen / Tantric Master), at that moment in that person's life, and for a general Buddhist lay person, perhaps appropriate conduct, is what advances your path to enlightenment, without harming the path of another. Perhaps it is always safer to ask such questions of your teacher.

My two cents is that neither of the two individuals pictured were bringing Buddhism down. I don't have the right, or capacity, to judge what is right for anyone but myself - though I think that those who follow the path of the "Marathon Monks" or "crazy wisdom" Teachers, risk their lives to do so. These are not my paths. Many high Lamas, whom I trust, sent their students to TNR. Each of us has the responsibility to work out their enlightenment with diligence.

Perhaps the view of a frog at the bottom of a well is different than that of an enlightened Buddha.

:namaste: to Roger, Sybille and Chodron - and the Marathon Monks, and their Teachers.

:namaste: to all who read this AND to all who do not.

:heart:


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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:16 pm 
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Maybe you should make a poll with all the different sexual practices you can think of?

I did notice the bit about not having had a sex life. That's actually not the case. You may have actually seen videos of me and another online a few years ago.

Oh and that cam shows. I hope no one recorded those but I know how the internet works.
PM me for links <3 ROFL

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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:48 pm 
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disjointed wrote:
Maybe you should make a poll with all the different sexual practices you can think of?

I did notice the bit about not having had a sex life. That's actually not the case. You may have actually seen videos of me and another online a few years ago.

Oh and that cam shows. I hope no one recorded those but I know how the internet works.
PM me for links <3 ROFL



I didn't say anything about you, or about your sex life. I talked about people who don't have a relationship(s), or those that simply don't want them trying to give advice on what constitutes a healthy one.

Alot of the sex threads on DW go like this: "Well, I don't want sex anymore because of my practice, and that's for the best".

That's awesome, i'm glad for anyone who can do that. I also think that it probably represents a very small minority of practitioners, and for the rest of us (those that for a variety of reasons will continue to have a sex life) a pronouncement like that is pretty meaningless, most people reading will know that sex is a big source of attachment, and that celibacy is often viewed as an ideal in Buddhism, and that there are plenty of sets of vows including it.

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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:54 am 
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disjointed wrote:
Maybe you should make a poll with all the different sexual practices you can think of?

I did notice the bit about not having had a sex life. That's actually not the case. You may have actually seen videos of me and another online a few years ago.

Oh and that cam shows. I hope no one recorded those but I know how the internet works.
PM me for links <3 ROFL

There is something.....off, about you.


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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:57 am 
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Simon E. wrote:
disjointed wrote:
Maybe you should make a poll with all the different sexual practices you can think of?

I did notice the bit about not having had a sex life. That's actually not the case. You may have actually seen videos of me and another online a few years ago.

Oh and that cam shows. I hope no one recorded those but I know how the internet works.
PM me for links <3 ROFL

There is something.....off, about you.


yes, im like wtf.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:01 am 
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hmm, why didnt i think of this earlier

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... cript.html

johnny this could be of interest to you. i listened it and it was quite interesting.


Gampopa doesnt define masturbation for a lay man as sexual misconduct, but some other masters do.

personally a healthy sex life is when you listen to your heart and not lust over the beautiful bodies of women. if youre in a relationship then rather than having sex, you should make love.

if not, i guess masturbation every now and a then wont kill you but takes away something from practice. so is it worth it really, no imo. but i still do it sometimes.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:34 pm 
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Johnny Dangerous wrote:
....what you think for a non-celibate Buddhist layperson, constitutes a healthy sex life?
Or maybe approach from the other side, what for a non-celibate Buddhist layperson does NOT constitute a healthy sex life?


I think it's simplified when you consider what "avoiding sexual misconduct" entails, and the underlying premise of not causing harm to oneself & others with sex. Then you can take whatever situation you're in (single, coupled etc) and apply those principles.

So, the obvious - no cheating, no sleeping with others who have partners, not causing harm in others relationships. Not pressuring others into sex or being deceitful to get into someone's pants.

If you're single, get amongst it if you want. If you're in a relationship, swing from the chandeliers if you both want to. Even S&M is fine, given both partners are consenting & there's a level of trust.

Personally I reckon a "healthy" sex life for a layperson who's into it, is one that fosters intimacy but doesn't become an obsession.

:smile:


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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:20 am 
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Buddhist rhetoric often imagines married life to be one long stretch of selfish, sensual indulgence. As a married man, I only wish that were true. In fact it's a great way to break down one's ego!

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 Post subject: Re: a healthy sex life.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:58 am 
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I do agree with a lot of what Johnny Dangerous wrote. Why is it on a lot of Buddhist forums, when a lay practitioner writes that they enjoy sex & have no intention of giving it up, that they are looked upon as second rate Buddhists? Many Buddhist traditions have married clergy. Japanese, Korean & Tibetan traditions come to mind, the Thai tradition, while not having married clergy feel that it's quite acceptable to ordain for a limited period of time before going back to house holder life.


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