dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:27 pm

So I got a dream yoga/phowa practice teaching and i'm all fired up. I've tried in the past with teachings from books, but didn't quite sustain anything.

Questions for those that do similar practices:

Is there some trick (that you can publicly disclose) to lucid states other than simply generating the desire to have them?

Is it pretty much necessary to keep a journal?

Have you found that pills or supplements for sleeping interfere? I have taken melatonin for years due to years of a graveyard job permanently knocking my rhythms out of whack.
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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby futerko » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:34 pm

If you are sleeping during daylight then letting a little sunlight come into the room can be helpful.

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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:37 pm

"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby disjointed » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:52 pm

Your instructions should have very specific answers to these questions.

For the lucidity, I read, there are 2 points of light to visualized inside the body.
External light source like candles may help.
I have heard, though it is not in the text I know of, that you can write "this is a dream" all over the place and that helps.

But I really don't know about this subject so I feel silly responding.
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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:30 am

"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby disjointed » Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:04 am

Yep. Rereading I see that now.
If there is a radical inconsistency between your statements and the position you claim to hold,
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Make as many accounts as you want; people can identify your deception with this test.

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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby ClearblueSky » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:03 am

I've had insomnia for years so I've pretty much taken every sleep supplement in the book. As far as how they effect dreaming, though some heavier ones might make you dream less, a lot actually make you dream more, and especially melatonin which you mentioned. If I take it after not using it for a while, I tend to have crazy dreams. One thing to look out for though, it's advised that it's best to take breaks in melatonin use. Doesn't have to be big, but it's good to take a week or so off every couple months. Maybe it'll even kick-start your practice when you start up again. Also a far as remembering dreams, I find that writing them down as soon as you wake up kind of puts you in a pattern that helps you be more aware of them in general.

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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby krodha » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:14 pm

Some people are of course more naturally predisposed to lucid dreaming etc., but for the most part I think the lucidity in sleep eventually flowers as a direct result of one's stability in the natural state. If you read some of the gradualist texts in Vajrayāna for example - which discuss the stages of realization - at a certain point the waking and dream states begin to intermingle on their own.

A friend of mine who is a good practitioner also said that after a certain point his ability to be lucid in dream and deeper sleep simply occurred naturally. That isn't to say we shouldn't attempt dream yoga as beginners, I think there's great value in it. And there are cetainly good habits which promote lucidity along with herbal supplements and activities that coordinate energy. But I think some of these issues with dream practice begin to naturally resolve themselves with time well spent in practice.

Part of the issue is that the all-basis [skt. ālaya, tib. kun gzhi], expresses itself as the deep unknowing states which occur in sleep, fainting etc. The all-basis is what falls away when we recognize our nature. It's sustained by karmic propensities and dualistic habitual tendencies, so some traces still remain latent even after recognition, but there is an increase in lucidity as those propensities fall away due to resting in vidyā.

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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:10 am

Thanks, I don't mind not being good at these things, I understood from the in person teaching I received, it's just something you do for a while before getting "results" I suppose. I think also I maybe need to spend a bit of time before bed relaxing and see if it helps the pre-sleep visualization.
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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby krodha » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:04 am

In the Dröltig Gongpa Rangdröl it states that even up until the path of no more learning (which is equivalent to aspect of non-meditation in Mahāmudrā and accords with the fourth vision of thögal) there is remnants of delusion in sleep:

"With the exhaustion of striving for mindfulness, meditation and post-meditation are completely mixed. Though subtle stains of delusion remain during sleep; this is called the lesser yoga of no more learning [lesser non-meditation]."

Then the next degree:

"Throughout the day and night, you become entirely at one with the luminosity; the subtle luminosity of sleep arises as experiences; this is called the medium yoga of no more learning [medium non-meditation]."

And the last:

"The subtle stains of the object of cognition, dualistic appearances, are exhausted, and the luminosities of ground and path are mixed into one; this is called the great yoga of no more learning [greater non-meditation]."

Great yoga of no more learning and great non-meditation are also called 'crossing over, without any difference in day or night, to the state of the inseparable three kāyas'. In Dzogpa Chenpo sem sde this stage is referred to as 'the experience of spontaneous presence transcending the boundaries of ordinary contemplation'. These three sections span stages [skt. bhūmi, tib. byang chub sems dpa'i sa] 8 to 16.

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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:16 am

Thanks, that was very interesting. I know next to nothing about Dzogchen really, I need to read up.
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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby krodha » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:32 am


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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby futerko » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:33 am


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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby krodha » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:41 am


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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby krodha » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:04 am

The ālaya's aspects are defined as fourfold...

'The four in detal are:

[i] The primordial ālaya: the attendance of nescience upon wisdom - that aspect [of nescience] that from the beginning arises simultaneously with gnosis, like tarnish on gold; it serves as the initial basis for all samsaric phenomena.

[ii] The linking-up ālaya: the basis of karmic activity, the neutral basic support that links up and impels through one's individual karma to samsara and nirvana. 

[iii] The ālaya of various imprints: the neutral [basis] of diverse latent karma that generates the samsaric cycle of mind and mental factors. 

[iv] The ālaya of the body of imprints: nescience as a basis, a ground for the manifestation of three different bodies [a] a gross body that manifests as parts, whose limbs and organs are [composed of] minute particles, [b] radiant body of light, and [c] a body that manifests out of contemplation.'

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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby futerko » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:01 am


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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby Arnoud » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:05 pm

Allan Wallace has a great book on dreaming which focuses a lot on how to become lucid in dreaming. A journal is pretty much a must.

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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby krodha » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:06 pm


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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

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Re: dream yoga and supplements, pills, some questions

Postby krodha » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:34 pm



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