a healthy sex life.

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a healthy sex life.

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:40 pm

Broad question obviously, but what you think for a non-celibate Buddhist layperson, constitutes a healthy sex life?
Or maybe approach from the other side, what for a non-celibate Buddhist layperson does NOT constitute a healthy sex life?
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby futerko » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:46 pm

You know that scene from pulp fiction... the one with the gimp and the ballgags? not healthy IMO
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby M.G. » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:47 pm

Having a partner you get along with.
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:32 pm

futerko wrote:You know that scene from pulp fiction... the one with the gimp and the ballgags? not healthy IMO


This is an interesting question, because it assumes that we should adhere as closely as possible to the "norm" in sexual relations. But the norm seems like an elusive thing, the closer you examine it.

The best answer i've heard is to simply have a life where you don't care that much about sex, you can take or leave it. Depending on one's libido though, that ain't always easy, especially with a willing partner around.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby M.G. » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:35 pm

I suppose for any given individual the healthiest sex life is whatever causes them the least emotional tensions.
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby shaunc » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:45 pm

The 3rd precept covers this pretty well. Keep away from anything illegal. Keep away from women/men that are in relationships. Besides that it's pretty much open slather.
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby futerko » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:51 pm

shaunc wrote: open slather.


:shock:

I'm not sure how specific we're gonna get here without crossing a few boundaries! rotfl
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby disjointed » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:36 pm

The prohibitions for laypeople relating to sex are easy to look up.

There are differences in opinion about homosexuality.
Polygamy is not prohibited.
Beastiality is prohibited. I think that is from the vinaya but I'm not 100% sure so it is probably hard to lookup.

Sex isn't a reliable source of happiness and practicing Buddhists soon find it doesn't offer them anything so they become celibate.
I am hesitant to say so, but I think people that practice karmamudra and HOLD tantric vows qualify as a kind of celibate.
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:46 pm

disjointed wrote:The prohibitions for laypeople relating to sex are easy to look up.

There are differences in opinion about homosexuality.
Polygamy is not prohibited.
Beastiality is prohibited. I think that is from the vinaya but I'm not 100% sure so it is probably hard to lookup.

Sex isn't a reliable source of happiness and practicing Buddhists soon find it doesn't offer them anything so they become celibate.
I am hesitant to say so, but I think people that practice karmamudra and HOLD tantric vows qualify as a kind of celibate.


I've been a practicing Buddhist for ten years, informally "Buddhish" before that.. and while i've found that practice has helped not obsessing with sex, i'd say your claim is pretty far from the reality, no one leaves sex behind that easily, yogi, ordained, whatever. Secondly, it rather clumsily completely ignores the fact that for something like a functioning marriage, for the vast majority of folks (i.e. Buddhist laypeople) a healthy sexual relationship is needed.

M.G. wrote:I suppose for any given individual the healthiest sex life is whatever causes them the least emotional tensions.


That sounds like a good working definition.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby Jikan » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:51 pm

A thought experiment: perhaps one ought to strive, among other things, to be GGG.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savage_Love#GGG

related: Brook Ziporyn's book Being & Ambiguity (about TienTai Buddhism) has a good chapter on sex & sexuality)
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby Ayu » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:58 pm

M.G. wrote:I suppose for any given individual the healthiest sex life is whatever causes them the least emotional tensions.

Best definition ever.
Because, if our mothers, who have been kind to us
From beginningless time, are suffering,
What can we do with (just) our own happiness?
From 10th of 37 Bodhisattva Practices
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby futerko » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:59 pm

Do unto others as you would have them do to you. ... Luke 6:31.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:02 am

futerko wrote:Do unto others as you would have them do to you. ... Luke 6:31.


:rolling: awwww yeah
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby futerko » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:05 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
futerko wrote:Do unto others as you would have them do to you. ... Luke 6:31.


:rolling: awwww yeah


...at least once... maybe twice! :rolling:
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby shaunc » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:11 am

[quote=

Sex isn't a reliable source of happiness and practicing Buddhists soon find it doesn't offer them anything so they become celibate.
[/quote]

To me this doesn't make sense. If this were true, wouldn't Buddhism as a religion have died out years ago, or at best been a very minor religion instead of being one of the biggest religions in the world.
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby disjointed » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:43 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I've been a practicing Buddhist for ten years, informally "Buddhish" before that.. and while i've found that practice has helped not obsessing with sex, i'd say your claim is pretty far from the reality, no one leaves sex behind that easily, yogi, ordained, whatever.


It could be that I have a different idea of what a practicing Buddhist is.
There's 2 big reasons why a practitioner would become celibate due to practice.
1) A better source of pleasure from meditation replaces sex.
2) Because the practitioner has investigated and/or shattered the appearance of what they lust for.
If you think these are inadequate modes that produce no liberation from craving then how do you think you will end rebirth?

Shaunc, it's not necessary for practicing Buddhists to reproduce to continue the lineage, it's only necessary for Buddhists to teach. There are plenty of people that are not practicing to have children. And when those children realize worldly life isn't enough to satisfy them they pursue Buddhism and become practitioners.
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:50 am

disjointed wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:I've been a practicing Buddhist for ten years, informally "Buddhish" before that.. and while i've found that practice has helped not obsessing with sex, i'd say your claim is pretty far from the reality, no one leaves sex behind that easily, yogi, ordained, whatever.

It could be that I have a different idea of what a practicing Buddhist is.


Or it could be that you are just being doctrinaire and not making much sense, since there are a loads of hugely respected but non-celibate Buddhist teachers out there.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby disjointed » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:09 am

"I am hesitant to say so, but I think people that practice karmamudra and HOLD tantric vows qualify as a kind of celibate." - me a while ago

Other than tantrikkas I can't think of any teachers like you're describing. But in my mind they're celibate.

I don't think I would take teachings from someone who was still looking for sex. People who are still sleezing around looking for sense pleasure aren't reliable. I mean, if you have a friend, when they are seeing someone, you never know if they're going to show up when you make arrangements. And if they are married, you can pretty much just forget about them. And that would apply to teachers also.
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:17 am

disjointed wrote:"I am hesitant to say so, but I think people that practice karmamudra and HOLD tantric vows qualify as a kind of celibate." - me a while ago

Other than tantrikkas I can't think of any teachers like you're describing. But in my mind they're celibate.

I don't think I would take teachings from someone who was still looking for sex. People who are still sleezing around looking for sense pleasure aren't reliable. I mean, if you have a friend, when they are seeing someone, you never know if they're going to show up when you make arrangements. And if they are married, you can pretty much just forget about them. And that would apply to teachers also.



Man, are you serious? Firstly this isn't posted only for Vajrayana or Tibetan practitioners, secondly there are all kinds of teachers in near every tradition I can think of who are very respected who disrobed, have families etc.

Not sure if that counts as "sleezing around" to you, but man you have some puritanical notion of the spectrum of what it means to be sexually active, evidently.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: a healthy sex life.

Postby shaunc » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:56 am

Japanese Buddhism has plenty of married teachers, the Thai tradition also have plenty of monks/nuns that ordain for a limited period of time. Just because a person enjoys an active sex life doesn't mean that they're sleazing around. We're not all swinging off the chandeliers in a leather batman suit (at least not as often as we'd like to).
Also, the celibate monks/nuns that teach, while being respected, it should also be noted that they're often financially supported by the lay Buddhist community. Don't forget the law of inter-dependence.
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