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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:21 pm 
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disjointed wrote:
Lol framing someone that doesn't acknowledge your claim to be enlightened as closed minded. That's great.
How about framing someone as closed minded for not acknowledging that they are not enlightened?


There are a lot of closed minded people who won't even consider they're not enlightened.


Honestly, I've never met anyone, from any tradition, who claimed to have attained enlightenment, except in jest and out of spite. I suppose one could argue that the entourages of some spiritual figures promote that claim indirectly.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:57 am 
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This topic touches me a bit personally because an old good friend and once mentor who has some degree of siddhi and realization has in the last couple of years, after a lifetime of meditation practice and teaching meditation, proclaimed "his enlightenment". He is not functioning in a Buddhist context although he has Buddha images around and references him. He is more aligned with Advaita Vedanta prophets like Nisargadatta Maharaj and new age teachers like Eckart Tolle.
I respect him as a human being and a spiritual person but I have no idea how he is defining enlightenment or why he is using the term. His experience certainly does not appear to correspond to a Buddhist vision of enlightenment. It is a bit confounding because while I appreciate that he had some big inner shift, and that it is some kind of realization-- I just don't understand why he is compelled to use the term "enlightenment", which at this point when using English in a spiritual context is a term associated with Nirvana.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:18 am 
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Adamantine wrote:
This topic touches me a bit personally because an old good friend and once mentor who has some degree of siddhi and realization has in the last couple of years, after a lifetime of meditation practice and teaching meditation, proclaimed "his enlightenment". He is not functioning in a Buddhist context although he has Buddha images around and references him. He is more aligned with Advaita Vedanta prophets like Nisargadatta Maharaj and new age teachers like Eckart Tolle.
I respect him as a human being and a spiritual person but I have no idea how he is defining enlightenment or why he is using the term. His experience certainly does not appear to correspond to a Buddhist vision of enlightenment. It is a bit confounding because while I appreciate that he had some big inner shift, and that it is some kind of realization-- I just don't understand why he is compelled to use the term "enlightenment", which at this point when using English in a spiritual context is a term associated with Nirvana.

The Advaita traditions sees identification of Self with Brahman (Consciousness/Awareness/etc) as Enlightenment and liberation. It is spiritual enlightenment to them because one realizes one's true Self, source and substratum of the universe.

Whereas, Buddhists have their own unique and distinct vision of what enlightenment is and what liberation entails, and what the true nature of self/universe is (based on anatman and sunyata).


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:06 am 
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M.G. wrote:
disjointed wrote:
Lol framing someone that doesn't acknowledge your claim to be enlightened as closed minded. That's great.
How about framing someone as closed minded for not acknowledging that they are not enlightened?


There are a lot of closed minded people who won't even consider they're not enlightened.


Honestly, I've never met anyone, from any tradition, who claimed to have attained enlightenment, except in jest and out of spite. I suppose one could argue that the entourages of some spiritual figures promote that claim indirectly.

Neither had I until a few months ago.
But there is a member of this forum who regularly claims to be enlightened...on another forum where the membership as clueless as he is..
It is clear after cross checking that
a) Its not a joke, and
b) He has no idea what is meant by Enlightenment means in Buddhism.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:43 pm 
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Simon E. wrote:
M.G. wrote:
disjointed wrote:
Lol framing someone that doesn't acknowledge your claim to be enlightened as closed minded. That's great.
How about framing someone as closed minded for not acknowledging that they are not enlightened?


There are a lot of closed minded people who won't even consider they're not enlightened.


Honestly, I've never met anyone, from any tradition, who claimed to have attained enlightenment, except in jest and out of spite. I suppose one could argue that the entourages of some spiritual figures promote that claim indirectly.

Neither had I until a few months ago.
But there is a member of this forum who regularly claims to be enlightened...on another forum where the membership as clueless as he is..
It is clear after cross checking that
a) Its not a joke, and
b) He has no idea what is meant by Enlightenment means in Buddhism.


I guess there's a first for everything.

If this person claims enlightenment specifically in the context of how a Buddhist lineage would understand the term (I.e. "I attained enlightenment through the practice of Dzogchen or Tantra"), presumably other members of the lineage can call him on it. If he's claiming something he personally calls "enlightenment" based on his own inner experience, it's up to his audience to evaluate the claim.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:06 pm 
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xabir wrote:
The Advaita traditions sees identification of Self with Brahman (Consciousness/Awareness/etc) as Enlightenment and liberation. It is spiritual enlightenment to them because one realizes one's true Self, source and substratum of the universe.

What does that mean?.....anyone?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:35 pm 
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M.G. wrote:
Simon E. wrote:
But there is a member of this forum who regularly claims to be enlightened...on another forum where the membership as clueless as he is..
It is clear after cross checking that
a) Its not a joke, and
b) He has no idea what is meant by Enlightenment means in Buddhism.


I guess there's a first for everything.

If this person claims enlightenment specifically in the context of how a Buddhist lineage would understand the term (I.e. "I attained enlightenment through the practice of Dzogchen or Tantra"), presumably other members of the lineage can call him on it. If he's claiming something he personally calls "enlightenment" based on his own inner experience, it's up to his audience to evaluate the claim.


This individual skirts this issue by creatively re-defining what Buddhism means in order to account for his or her mastery of it. Here's a summary of this sort of thinking:

*what I have experienced is Arhatship (or Buddhahood or whatever term is used)

*any differences between my descriptions of my experience or my claims and traditional accounts or doctrines reflects errors in those traditions
(shorter: Buddhism is the problem, not my own shortcomings)

*my redefinition of Arhatship (or whatever term) amounts to a modernization and positive intervention--those who do not follow me are by definition living in the past or worse

:coffee:

It's not easy to communicate under these circumstances.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:36 pm 
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Nothing wrote:
xabir wrote:
The Advaita traditions sees identification of Self with Brahman (Consciousness/Awareness/etc) as Enlightenment and liberation. It is spiritual enlightenment to them because one realizes one's true Self, source and substratum of the universe.

What does that mean?.....anyone?

Sorry, nothing, i can not define that...

Just wanted to tell, I know some self-appointed enlightened from internet forums. As long as they don't try to teach, i like to chat with one or two of them. These discussions are always very interessting. But in some of them I detect some kind of mental sickness. Thinking of oneself to be Jesus or enlighted is sometimes a symptom like depression.
But not always.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:37 pm 
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Nothing wrote:
xabir wrote:
The Advaita traditions sees identification of Self with Brahman (Consciousness/Awareness/etc) as Enlightenment and liberation. It is spiritual enlightenment to them because one realizes one's true Self, source and substratum of the universe.

What does that mean?.....anyone?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_theory

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:00 pm 
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Jikan wrote:
M.G. wrote:
Simon E. wrote:
But there is a member of this forum who regularly claims to be enlightened...on another forum where the membership as clueless as he is..
It is clear after cross checking that
a) Its not a joke, and
b) He has no idea what is meant by Enlightenment means in Buddhism.


I guess there's a first for everything.

If this person claims enlightenment specifically in the context of how a Buddhist lineage would understand the term (I.e. "I attained enlightenment through the practice of Dzogchen or Tantra"), presumably other members of the lineage can call him on it. If he's claiming something he personally calls "enlightenment" based on his own inner experience, it's up to his audience to evaluate the claim.


This individual skirts this issue by creatively re-defining what Buddhism means in order to account for his or her mastery of it. Here's a summary of this sort of thinking:

*what I have experienced is Arhatship (or Buddhahood or whatever term is used)

*any differences between my descriptions of my experience or my claims and traditional accounts or doctrines reflects errors in those traditions
(shorter: Buddhism is the problem, not my own shortcomings)

*my redefinition of Arhatship (or whatever term) amounts to a modernization and positive intervention--those who do not follow me are by definition living in the past or worse

:coffee:

It's not easy to communicate under these circumstances.

Spot on Jikan.
And of course when and if he reads this it will confirm to him to his own satisfaction that he has transcended the outer form of Buddharma. ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:02 pm 
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Simon E. wrote:
Spot on Jikan.
And of course when and if he reads this it will confirm to him to his own satisfaction that he has transcended the outer form of Buddharma. ;)



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:05 pm 
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does this alleged enlightened one have claws?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:09 pm 
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Adamantine wrote:
I just don't understand why he is compelled to use the term "enlightenment", which at this point when using English in a spiritual context is a term associated with Nirvana.


No, not really.

Anyway, followers of Buddhadharma [The Dharma of the fully awakened one] should use the term "awakening" [bodhi, byang chub] and full awakening, which is what "Buddha" [sangs ryas] actually means. I.e. being fully [rgyas] awakened [sangs] from the slumber of ignorance.

The term enlightened is too broad to be meaningful in the context of Buddhadharma. Further, there is actually no term in all of Buddhadharma which corresponds to the English words "enlightened" or "spiritually illuminated".

But there is a term which corresponds to "waking up", "awakening" i.e. Buddha, bodhisattva, bodhi, and so on.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:11 pm 
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Simon E. wrote:
And of course when and if he reads this it will confirm to him to his own satisfaction that he has transcended the outer form of Buddharma. ;)



My guess is that he is an avid follower of Bud Dharma. Image

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:12 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
Simon E. wrote:
And of course when and if he reads this it will confirm to him to his own satisfaction that he has transcended the outer form of Buddharma. ;)



My guess is that he is an avid follower of Bud Dharma. Image


Me likee


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:06 pm 
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'This individual skirts this issue by creatively re-defining what Buddhism means in order to account for his or her mastery of it. Here's a summary of this sort of thinking:

*what I have experienced is Arhatship (or Buddhahood or whatever term is used)

*any differences between my descriptions of my experience or my claims and traditional accounts or doctrines reflects errors in those traditions
(shorter: Buddhism is the problem, not my own shortcomings)

*my redefinition of Arhatship (or whatever term) amounts to a modernization and positive intervention--those who do not follow me are by definition living in the past or worse

:coffee:

It's not easy to communicate under these circumstances.'

---

I suppose its up to his audience to decide how plausible his idiosyncratic interpretations of Buddhism are, though by claiming to have specifically attained enlightenment as defined by Buddhism he opens himself up to essentially unlimited criticism from all traditional practitioners.


@Malcolm - back in the 90's the slang term in my hometown for ganja was "Buddha."


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:17 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:
does this alleged enlightened one have claws?

Bingo Cone...! :smile:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:20 pm 
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M.G. wrote:
'This individual skirts this issue by creatively re-defining what Buddhism means in order to account for his or her mastery of it. Here's a summary of this sort of thinking:

*what I have experienced is Arhatship (or Buddhahood or whatever term is used)

*any differences between my descriptions of my experience or my claims and traditional accounts or doctrines reflects errors in those traditions
(shorter: Buddhism is the problem, not my own shortcomings)

*my redefinition of Arhatship (or whatever term) amounts to a modernization and positive intervention--those who do not follow me are by definition living in the past or worse

:coffee:

It's not easy to communicate under these circumstances.'

---

I suppose its up to his audience to decide how plausible his idiosyncratic interpretations of Buddhism are, though by claiming to have specifically attained enlightenment as defined by Buddhism he opens himself up to essentially unlimited criticism from all traditional practitioners.


@Malcolm - back in the 90's the slang term in my hometown for ganja was "Buddha."


Hmmmnnn is gangja a good substance for sang offering? Assuming there must be a bunch of etheric beings and spirits, etc. who must have been potheads in previous lives?!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Adamantine wrote:
M.G. wrote:
'This individual skirts this issue by creatively re-defining what Buddhism means in order to account for his or her mastery of it. Here's a summary of this sort of thinking:

*what I have experienced is Arhatship (or Buddhahood or whatever term is used)

*any differences between my descriptions of my experience or my claims and traditional accounts or doctrines reflects errors in those traditions
(shorter: Buddhism is the problem, not my own shortcomings)

*my redefinition of Arhatship (or whatever term) amounts to a modernization and positive intervention--those who do not follow me are by definition living in the past or worse

:coffee:

It's not easy to communicate under these circumstances.'

---

I suppose its up to his audience to decide how plausible his idiosyncratic interpretations of Buddhism are, though by claiming to have specifically attained enlightenment as defined by Buddhism he opens himself up to essentially unlimited criticism from all traditional practitioners.


@Malcolm - back in the 90's the slang term in my hometown for ganja was "Buddha."


Hmmmnnn is gangja a good substance for sang offering? Assuming there must be a bunch of etheric beings and spirits, etc. who must have been potheads in previous lives?!


Only if you want to attract a bunch of lazy slacker spirits.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:06 pm 
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M.G. wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
M.G. wrote:
'This individual skirts this issue by creatively re-defining what Buddhism means in order to account for his or her mastery of it. Here's a summary of this sort of thinking:

*what I have experienced is Arhatship (or Buddhahood or whatever term is used)

*any differences between my descriptions of my experience or my claims and traditional accounts or doctrines reflects errors in those traditions
(shorter: Buddhism is the problem, not my own shortcomings)

*my redefinition of Arhatship (or whatever term) amounts to a modernization and positive intervention--those who do not follow me are by definition living in the past or worse

:coffee:

It's not easy to communicate under these circumstances.'

---

I suppose its up to his audience to decide how plausible his idiosyncratic interpretations of Buddhism are, though by claiming to have specifically attained enlightenment as defined by Buddhism he opens himself up to essentially unlimited criticism from all traditional practitioners.


@Malcolm - back in the 90's the slang term in my hometown for ganja was "Buddha."


Hmmmnnn is gangja a good substance for sang offering? Assuming there must be a bunch of etheric beings and spirits, etc. who must have been potheads in previous lives?!


Only if you want to attract a bunch of lazy slacker spirits.


You're going to call all the tribes of Shaivite Sadhu babas lazy slackers?

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