Experiencing Annica

Whether you're exploring Buddhism for the first time or you're already on the path, feel free to ask questions of any kind here.

Re: Experiencing Annica

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:04 pm

justsit wrote:So do you believe everything you think? (addressed to OP)


that reminds me, padmasambhava stated that the meditator who believes his own mind will take the wrong path at the time of death.
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1267
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: Experiencing Annica

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:21 pm

I find the most powerful experience of it meditation wise is with reference to self, each passing moment you have a thought, interpret sense data, etc. you have to do so in reference to a sense of self. For me, it's like an actual visual picture, and each time I follow the thought, sense object, etc. back to it and observe it has changed. I cannot observe it constantly, time is choppy for me.. and it can kind of dissolve just the way thoughts can when observed. But yeah, any time I view this self, it is different, it has never once repeated a form.

The same could be said of anything really, but with the this kind of self-picture, noticing it's impermanence is more jarring then things like thoughts and sense data, which are sort of intuitively impermanent.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2144
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: Experiencing Annica

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:25 pm

rachmiel wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:In Vajrayana practice the meditation on impermanence is mostly about contemplating death, that everyone is subject to it. In Theravada, the meditation on impermanence takes the form of observing the arising and passing away of phenomena, which is internal.

The Theravadan approach makes sense to me, because it is direct subjective experience of arisings and decayings.

The Vajrayana approach makes less sense, because it is an act of conceptualization, storytelling. And engaging in stories for their metaphorical/instructional value is imo a slippery slope ... it's way too easy to reify the stories, mistake them for reality. (No disrespect intended for Vajrayana or any other form of Buddhism.)



Instead of telling stories, it's more like conditioning yourself thing think right..if that makes sense. Just like you would train yourself for a physical task, constant correction of your movements etc..it's similar. You fake it till it's real, that is why it is powerful.

You cannot see a rock change, but the very idea that you think it is the same rock is the problem, it has ceased to be the same rock the minute you start thinking about it, so all you are lacking is visual proof of change..which is obviously there both by inference and by empirical evidence, which we accept based on inference - lol.

"External change" is entirely 100% conjecture, you will never experience external change, and never have it - can only be inferred.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2144
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: Experiencing Annica

Postby rachmiel » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:53 pm

justsit wrote:So do you believe everything you think? (addressed to OP)

I'd say the closest I can come to *knowing* anything with certainty* is knowing what I'm aware of in my mindstream: subjective thoughts, feelings, images, etc. The rest is speculation.

* If that's even possible. See my signature. ;-)
No one really knows anything. (I think.)
User avatar
rachmiel
 
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:05 am

Re: Experiencing Annica

Postby justsit » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:11 pm

rachmiel wrote:I'm aware of in my mindstream: subjective thoughts, feelings, images, etc.


So what is it that is aware of mindstream?
User avatar
justsit
 
Posts: 641
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:24 pm
Location: Delaware

Re: Experiencing Annica

Postby Matt J » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:14 pm

Personally, I DO think what we experience is constantly changing. At least for me.

Take a blank wall. This is something that I am familiar with as a Zen student. Now we tend to think of the wall as solid. However, this is more what I think about the wall than what I experience. I CAN that my experience of the wall is constantly changing:

1. The experience wall comes and goes as I face toward it and away from it. At times, it fills my whole field of vision. At other times, it fills a small part of my vision. At other times, there is no wall there at all. The wall looks one way up close, and another way from afar.

2. The wall looks one way in the early morning, another way in the bright day, and another at night. A mere cloud outside can change the color of the wall.

3. The longer I stare at the wall, the less solid it appears. The colors tend to blur and become squiggly. Sometimes, the wall vanishes altogether.

So I don't see a contradiction.
The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
--- Xin Xin Ming

http://zenanddao.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Matt J
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:29 am

Re: Experiencing Annica

Postby rachmiel » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:27 pm

justsit wrote:
rachmiel wrote:I'm aware of in my mindstream: subjective thoughts, feelings, images, etc.


So what is it that is aware of mindstream?

Mind is aware of mind. There is ultimately no concrete separate subject I that is aware of object mindstream. There is awareness, which is mind.
No one really knows anything. (I think.)
User avatar
rachmiel
 
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:05 am

Re: Experiencing Annica

Postby rachmiel » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:33 pm

Matt J wrote:Personally, I DO think what we experience is constantly changing. At least for me.

Take a blank wall. This is something that I am familiar with as a Zen student. Now we tend to think of the wall as solid. However, this is more what I think about the wall than what I experience. I CAN that my experience of the wall is constantly changing:

1. The experience wall comes and goes as I face toward it and away from it. At times, it fills my whole field of vision. At other times, it fills a small part of my vision. At other times, there is no wall there at all. The wall looks one way up close, and another way from afar.

2. The wall looks one way in the early morning, another way in the bright day, and another at night. A mere cloud outside can change the color of the wall.

3. The longer I stare at the wall, the less solid it appears. The colors tend to blur and become squiggly. Sometimes, the wall vanishes altogether.

So I don't see a contradiction.

These are all subjective changes, changes in the way your mind perceives/interprets the wall, not changes in the wall itself. And, as I said, I agree that you can experience annica of your mindstream.
No one really knows anything. (I think.)
User avatar
rachmiel
 
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:05 am

Re: Experiencing Annica

Postby Matt J » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:25 pm

So where is the line between the mind-stream and the wall? Does one ever experience the wall itself (i.e. beyond our seeing, hearing, touching, etc.)?


rachmiel wrote:These are all subjective changes, changes in the way your mind perceives/interprets the wall, not changes in the wall itself. And, as I said, I agree that you can experience annica of your mindstream.
The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
--- Xin Xin Ming

http://zenanddao.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Matt J
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:29 am

Re: Experiencing Annica

Postby futerko » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:29 pm

rachmiel wrote:These are all subjective changes, changes in the way your mind perceives/interprets the wall, not changes in the wall itself. And, as I said, I agree that you can experience annica of your mindstream.


What you are actually seeing is light, which hits the wall and enters your eye. In fact, in order to appear a colour, the object must absorb all the other visible colours and the one you see is the one that bounces off.

In order to have a perception, there must be this contact, and that means it is changing. If it didn't change, you wouldn't see it.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
User avatar
futerko
 
Posts: 993
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:58 am

Re: Experiencing Annica

Postby rachmiel » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:04 am

rachmiel wrote:These are all subjective changes, changes in the way your mind perceives/interprets the wall, not changes in the wall itself. And, as I said, I agree that you can experience annica of your mindstream.
Matt J wrote:So where is the line between the mind-stream and the wall? Does one ever experience the wall itself (i.e. beyond our seeing, hearing, touching, etc.)?

No.

Here's my take, fwiw. (Not my attempt to paraphrase a Buddhist take.)

First, there is no "wall itself." There is *something* that exists which mind interprets as: wall. But that's just an interpretation of mind, a concept. So there is no wall-itself to be experienced.

If you move down to the *something* that does exist ... this something cannot be experienced other than through the senses, which is mind.

So: "The wall" is a kind of co-creation of mind and the something that does exist. Without mind there would be no wall; without the something there would be nothing for mind to interpret (as wall). You need both for the wall to come into (relative) being.
No one really knows anything. (I think.)
User avatar
rachmiel
 
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:05 am

Re: Experiencing Annica

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:45 am

invisiblediamond wrote:But in Vajrayana one gets into the Buddha nature and the internal reality of the kayas. So meditation on anicca gets demoted big time.

Vajrayāna, Buddha nature and the kāyas do not contradict anitya or impermanence. So it's impossible that anitya is demoted. The three marks; anitya, anātman and duhkha, are an integral aspect of Vajrayāna and the other yānas.
asunthatneversets
 
Posts: 1094
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Experiencing Annica

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:58 am

There is no "wall itself". Or at least, there is no "wall itself" you will ever experience, that's an empty category. What would you experince, a bunch of atoms, solidity? It seems like this question comes down to what is subjective and what is objective ultimately, meditation wise it seems like the way to experience that is find whatever you believe delimits "inside" from "outside", and then observe it, try to find it's dimensions, and get to the bottom of it.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2144
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: Experiencing Annica

Postby rachmiel » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:12 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:... find whatever you believe delimits "inside" from "outside", and then observe it, try to find it's dimensions, and get to the bottom of it.

Nice. I'm going to sic my mind on this for a while, see what it yields.

It reminds me a bit of looking for where mind resides.
No one really knows anything. (I think.)
User avatar
rachmiel
 
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:05 am

Previous

Return to Exploring Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: JKhedrup, xabir and 16 guests

>